Who is better, Brees vs Favre

[LaserFocus]

8 hours ago, tyler735 said:

I'll absolutely say Brees had bad defenses that held him back from the playoffs. It would be absurd not to. The Saints the past 3-4 seasons have had statistically some of the worst defenses in NFL history. The making the playoff argument is always bogus as football is a team game, but in this case it's especially bad as those Saint's defenses were so bad that there isn't a QB in the history of the NFL that could have brought those teams to the playoffs.

Also it should be noted that in 11 playoff games Drew Brees actually has a better QB rating in the playoffs than the does in his career in the regular season. His career playoff QB rating is over 100. Which obviously means he's played better against the best teams in the NFL when it matters most.

Agree about defenses hurting Brees in the postseason, Dan Fouts had a similar problem. But QB rating can be deceiving in the postseason, just look at Tony Romo. In the postseason, it's more about timing in this usually tight games between closely matched teams. It's about winning, and that's why the overwhelming number of SB-winning QBs are HOF material. The most important individual number for a QB in the postseason is to deliver wins. Delivering a SB title to the Saints was a special achievement, many thought it would never happen with that franchise.

But when we do compare QBs from different eras, it is valid to mention how much easier it is to throw the ball today. Favre played roughly ten years before Brees arrived, and in that time, defensive backs were allowed more contact with receivers. It was 2003 or 2004, when the NFL clamped down more on this practice. Every dozen years or so, the game is being altered to largely help the offense. From the disappearance of big hitting free safeties,  to player safety rules, and tighter pass interference calls, much has changed since the 1990s. If Favre, Aikman, Young, Kelly, etc. had the benefit of playing under today's rules, their numbers would increase. Conversely, if the top QBs today had to play under the 1990s rules, their numbers decline. And if we went back to the pre 1978 era, it was far more difficult to throw and catch the football.     

[Leoric]

Not only DB's manhandling Receivers but Favre played back when you were still allowed to hit a QB. The hits Favre, Aikman and Simms took during that time period were jaw dropping. 

 

There was a whole show segment called jacked up. The 90's were not kind to QB's. 

[Danger]

On 8/31/2017 at 1:26 PM, Buddyboy said:

According to John Maxymuks 2009 Quarterback Abstract, by computerizing the data for hundreds of league QBs and normalizing the stats:

25 Namath

This list loses all credibility here.

[Danger]

Favre is one of the more overrated Quarterbacks in the leagues history. Sure he played at an older time in the league. But just like the Beatles, just because they did it way back in the day doesn't mean they haven't been outshined by those who have come after them and improved upon what's already been done. Quarterbacks as a whole are just as a whole superior due to the evolution of how the best approach the game, what sort of things they have at their disposal. Honestly I think Era plays too much of a factor into where people rank players historically. The impact of rule changes throughout time is vastly overblown. The average Quarterback is just as a whole better than they used to be.

[CWood21]

What exactly are we basing this off of?

[ECPackers]

Brees is like aaron Rodgers without the greatness

and for that forgettable reason, Brett Favre 10x out of 10

[ET80]

If I want a QB to build around for several years, I go Brees.

If I have one season - on better stated, one game - and I want a QB, I go Favre.

[tyler735]

10 hours ago, ECPackers said:

Brees is like aaron Rodgers without the greatness

and for that forgettable reason, Brett Favre 10x out of 10

What does that even mean?? 

I'd say Brees has had some greatness as he will likely become the all-time leader in passing yards, touchdowns, has one of the best career completion percentages ever, and has been a part of these accomplishments:

That is what greatness looks like..

[ReadyToThump]

Favre is one of my favorite players of all time. But Drew Brees is the better QB.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

I feel like Favre has become underrated on FF

[SwiftPride]

Brees is the better QB and racks up the stats.

Favre is a favorite because he is that gritty gunslinger.

[Iamcanadian]

On 9/4/2017 at 9:15 AM, LaserFocus said:

Agree about defenses hurting Brees in the postseason, Dan Fouts had a similar problem. But QB rating can be deceiving in the postseason, just look at Tony Romo. In the postseason, it's more about timing in this usually tight games between closely matched teams. It's about winning, and that's why the overwhelming number of SB-winning QBs are HOF material. The most important individual number for a QB in the postseason is to deliver wins. Delivering a SB title to the Saints was a special achievement, many thought it would never happen with that franchise.

But when we do compare QBs from different eras, it is valid to mention how much easier it is to throw the ball today. Favre played roughly ten years before Brees arrived, and in that time, defensive backs were allowed more contact with receivers. It was 2003 or 2004, when the NFL clamped down more on this practice. Every dozen years or so, the game is being altered to largely help the offense. From the disappearance of big hitting free safeties,  to player safety rules, and tighter pass interference calls, much has changed since the 1990s. If Favre, Aikman, Young, Kelly, etc. had the benefit of playing under today's rules, their numbers would increase. Conversely, if the top QBs today had to play under the 1990s rules, their numbers decline. And if we went back to the pre 1978 era, it was far more difficult to throw and catch the football.     

Everything you have said here is spot on. Today's game is so different from the past generations that comparisons are rather pointless.

Take WR for instance, playing WR in the 50 to the 80's was a dangerous position where on any over the middle pass, a WR risked a serious head shot and very few WR's would even attempt that kind of reception. Most of today's WR's could not even play in the old NFL where it took a huge amount of courage to perform. That is why few NFL teams ever drafted a WR very high in the draft, just way to difficult to measure a prospects courage.

For me there is little difference between Favre and Brees, they both won 1 SB and put up great #'s throughout their careers. I see little differences in their performances over their careers.

[Raves]

They're both great quarterbacks and I love how both of them played the game.  I really think both QBs excel at different systems though.  I think Favre would struggle in the precision offense that requires touch a lot of times to make sure passes are caught in stride of the Saints that uses more screens and short passes, but Brees would struggle in a offense that relies heavily on the deep ball.  Both QBs do different things exceptionally well.

[iknowcool]

On 9/3/2017 at 3:23 PM, HorizontoZenith said:

And don't say Drew has had bad teams and bad defenses.  Favre's defense from 2000 to 2006 were far from good. 

It isn't even comparable.  Those Packers defenses weren't good but they weren't terrible.  The Saints defenses have consistently been in the bottom five in the NFL.  Brees is the only reason the Saints aren't usually picking in the top 10.
 

ie. during the time frame you listed, the Packers defense was only 20th or worse in scoring 2x.  In the last 6 seasons (2016-2011), the Saints defense was 20th or worse in scoring 4x.  The Packers worst rank was 25th.  Saints have been 30th or worse 3x in that frame.  

I don't see how anyone can blame Brees for the Saints not making the playoffs.

[y2lamanaki]

On 9/3/2017 at 3:19 PM, HorizontoZenith said:

Depends on what you're asking.  Pure talent and skill, it's unquestionably Brett Favre.  Favre pretty much just winged his entire career.

Football IQ, effort, intelligence and ability to take advantage of defenses through that knowledge, it's Brees. 

Add them all up and I'd give the edge to Favre simply because a better coach could have gotten the most out of that.  Favre had a couple bad coaches (Rhodes, Sherman), and his numbers during their time clearly reflects that.

http://www.nfl.com/player/brettfavre/2500606/profile

Look at his numbers between '99 and '95 and compare them to his second years and on with McCarthy and Holmgren.  A lot of that was on him since he didn't always buy in, but when he bought into a system and trusted his team/coach and put the effort in (like he did in 2008 with the Vikings), he was among the best ever. 

Also, compare his '94-'97 seasons to other quarterbacks in that time.  There's no comparison. 

94-97 seasons:
Favre - 145 touchdowns, 56 interceptions (2.6)
Young - 88 touchdowns, 33 interceptions (2.6)
Elway - 96 touchdowns, 49 interceptions (2.0)
Marino - 87 touchdowns, 52 interceptions (1.7)

Even if you take Favre's 94-97 streak and compare it against those three others best four years of their career, the numbers still look good. 

Favre's 94-97 seasons - 145 touchdowns, 56 interceptions (2.6)
Young's best four seasons in touchdowns - 125 touchdowns, 45 interceptions (2.7)
Elways's best four seasons in touchdowns - 104 touchdowns, 49 interceptions (2.1)
Marino's best four seasons in touchdowns - 152 touchdowns, 78 interceptions (1.9)

That's just to give you perspective on the other best quarterbacks who played in Favre's era. 

Now consider the different era Favre played the majority of his career in.  Now take his 94-97 season and compare it with Drew's best four seasons:

Favre's 94-97 seasons - 145 touchdowns, 56 interceptions (2.6)
Brees' best four seasons in touchdowns - 165 touchdowns, 60 interceptions (2.75)
Favre's best four seasons in touchdowns (swapping 94 @ 33 TD with 2009 @ 33 TD) - 145 touchdowns, 46 interceptions (3.15)

Consider that for a second.  Brees, in literally the easiest era of football, had 20 more touchdowns and 4 more interceptions in his best four years than Favre had in 94-97. 

If Brett Favre put half the time into the mental side of the game as guys like Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Manning... He would have been the undisputed number one QB to ever play the game.  Favre literally didn't know what "nickel" defense meant when he was a veteran in the league, and yet he's second all-time in touchdown passes. 

Favre gets really underrated here because he's been out of the league for a while and everybody looks at the interceptions, but he was unquestionably the best QB of all time at his height (players have since surpassed him, but he was unquestionably the best at the time).  He won three MVP awards in a row.  How does that happen?  It's extremely unheard of. 

So yeah, as far as pure talent and ability, I don't think there was anyone better than Favre.  I'd even put him above Aaron Rodgers as far as physical, uncoachable ability.  It was Favre's mental game that held him back. 

Then you consider that Favre went to one more Super Bowl (where he played very well), and I think it's very obvious and clear which one was the better player, and that's not even touching on his durability in a time where players could body slam a QB. 

This is just a phenomenal post. I was coming in to post taking Brees in this debate, but I've hesitated thanks to this. Some excellent notes, and one of the better posts I've seen on any topic in some time. Truly love the research that went into it. My lone issue with it is that this is a discussion about careers, and to take only a 4-year stretch could drastically alter some of that story, even if it might be the greatest 4-year stretch for a QB ever.

I think this is a great topic overall, too, because the quarterbacks are probably a lot closer in similarity stat-wise than most would give credit. One can point at INT totals for Favre, but on a per-pass and per-game basis, they are not all that far off. Favre inevitably had more TDs and INTs because he played a lot longer - yes - a LOT longer. Brees needs to play another three full seasons after this one to have the same longevity that Favre did. 

Here's a per-game basis of the two: 

				Passing							Rushing
Rk	Player	From	To	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	Yds	Att	Yds	TD
1	Drew Brees	2001	2016	25.0	37.6	283.7	2.0	0.9	1.5	10.9	1.7	3.1	0.1
2	Brett Favre*	1991	2010	20.9	33.7	237.9	1.7	1.1	1.7	11.5	2.0	6.1	0.0

 

Brees is throwing (on average) only about 4 more passes per game over his career, even in today's pass-happy NFL. Brees definitely has the better numbers on that per-game basis, but not by a lot, and he has benefitted far more from the rule changes protecting QBs and Receivers than Favre was able to. 

So it's an extremely close debate. There are a lot of variables involved. While Favre was unquestionably the best quarterback in the mid-to-late 90s, even aging Young, Aikman, Marino, and Elway could not compete with the competition Brees faced for the top QB as he had to against in-their-prime Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, who many would argue are the two best QBs ever. 

In the end - I chicken out and call it a toss-up. Came in to argue Brees, and if this is like the SATs and going with your gut counts, I choose him. But I've been swayed by Favre arguments, and in the end - they're both unquestioned greats in my book.