How many Steelers fans are aware of the fact that Franco Harris is the most overrated thing to ever exist on planet earth?

[DudeWhat???]

On 4/3/2019 at 6:18 AM, jebrick said:

For the Steelers Ferguson would be a 5 tech.  He has the height but needs to add 30 lbs.  He could work for the Steelers but he is a IDL in their scheme

 

1 hour ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Hilarious. That video only proves my point. "Franco Harris Hilites"...with him breaking only 1 tackle (Browns' corner, Thom Darden) on the muddiest field you will ever see. 

Now, here's a Le'Veon Bell highlight video: 

 

Bell has had about 50% of the touches Harris had in his career, and you would struggle to fill 25% of the time in this video for Harris. 

Actually it showed him running through the rams d linemen also. But those with agendas gotta lie lol

[NFLExpert49]

19 minutes ago, DudeWhat??? said:

 

Actually it showed him running through the rams d linemen also. But those with agendas gotta lie lol

Are you kidding me? Getting tackled in the endzone by the first guy who touched him on a 1 yard TD run is not "running through the Rams d-linemen."

 

[VigilantZombie]

So your definition of a bad running back is a running back who fails to break tackles on a terribly muddy field. Go away

[Neumatic]

I don't mean to prod you guys but i made a title with the intention of trying to rile up everyone for no reason. 

Are you aware of the fact that no one gives a **** about your opinion here? Wanting to debate about a player is one thing but coming in here with your condescending post about how you hate Franco Harris isn't a debate.

[warfelg]

Running into defenders, taking them on, risking turnovers.....makes you good?  2017's broken tackle leaders were Kenyon Drake, LeGarrette Blount, Jay Ajayi, Alvin Kamara, Dion Lewis.  There's exactly one of those running backs that I wouldn't mind having.  Similar thing happened with 2018 where the top list of broken tackle leaders aren't great running backs.

A running back that can avoid contact, protects the ball, and keeps his health to remain available....makes you bad?  I'm sorry but Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Thomlinson, Barry Sanders, Gayle Sayers were the epitome of avoiding contact, and only 1 of those 4 aren't considered one of the top 10 best RB's in history.

On top of that, looking at the top 10 list of rushing yards:

Emmitt Smith (average in broken tackles stats), Walter Payton (could run around as easily as through someone), Barry Sanders (avoided contact), Frank Gore (average in broken tackles), Curtis Martin (about average), LT (avoided a lot of contact), Jerome Bettis (took on contact), Adrian Peterson (takes on contact), Eric Dickerson (avoided contact), Tony Dorsett (about average).

Want to go beyond that to hit Franco? Jim Brown (took on contact), Marshall Faulk (allergic to contact), Edgerrin James (avoided contact), Marcus Allen (about Average).

After that you start to get into the heavy took on contact guys with Thurman Thomas, Fred Taylor, John Riggings, Corey Dillon, Warrick Dunn, Jamal Lewis

These guys that tend to have a lot of broken contact vs the guys that avoid it also see big differences in YPC.  Sure the broken contact guys tend to average more YAC, but last year the average YAC guys saw a breakdown of about 1.8 yards before contact and 1.6 yards after contact for 3.4 yards per carry.  The guys that had less YAC but a big YPC, averaged about 2.8 yards before contact and 1.1 yard after contact, for 3.9 yards per carry.  So yes taking on contact, at times you can have more yards and you gain an average of an extra half yard.  But when you go almost a full yard further before being contacted that YAC becomes insignificant.  

TL;DR ----

Historically or currently there is little correlation between contact and better play from a RB.

[Ward4HOF]

13 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

I'm honestly not here to prod you guys...

...Not only was Harris not great...not only was Harris not good...Harris wasn't even OK. He was an absolutely awful RB. Horrible. Terrible. Among the worst you'll ever see. 

Franco Harris is not a Top 500 RB in NFL history. I'm not exaggerating...

 

Attention w_h_o_r_e.... sorry, but this type of post is one that would typically be associated with one whose mama didn't let him suckle enough, who was delivered from a mama whose 'baby daddy' left at first knowledge of his existence...

The opinion shared is one that either is shared by someone who enjoys trolling, or one who  extremely deranged and confused. Nothing...and I mean nothing spewed throughout that entire post was based in fact; it's contrary to the widely known fact, and evidentially-based knowledge to the contrary of the opinion spewed by a self-absorbed, self-hyped individual who uses a self-promoting s/n, in order to make himself feel more important than whatever miserable existence that he actually lives...what a joke... does one actually expect NFL fans to ever take anything that is posted from someone that uses that self-important s/n, seriously?? The hyperbole spewed through that entire vomit-inducing, 'look-at-me' post that was provided is beyond ridiculous.

Myself and the rest of the rational world will  simply move along and continue to know what is actually, fact... which is backed up by the knowledge of millions upon millions of people, over the utterly preposterous notion, and frankly, sad attempt for attention posted by completely, child-like individual.

And, in before the attempt at discrediting me...yes, I am old enough to have watched plenty of Franco Harris during his NFL career.

So, there it is... I fed the troll... I hope he seeks psychological treatment.

[almondjr]

And how many broken tackles and yards after contact did you have in your “H.O.F” career 

[cjfollett]

12 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

LOL. No. The Steelers' dominant defense and their run blocking were the primary reeason the Steelers won their 1st two SBs.

Also...injured? Huh? Harris never missed a game in the two years between their Super Bowls. 

Well at least you're a consistent troll. I'll give you that.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197612260rai.htm

Pray tell, why are there no stats for Harris in this game?

 

[NFLExpert49]

1 hour ago, cjfollett said:

Well at least you're a consistent troll. I'll give you that.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197612260rai.htm

Pray tell, why are there no stats for Harris in this game?

 

1. Because it's a playoff game. I was talking about the regular season. 

2. You claimed he was injured in both seasons between the Super Bowl wins, yet he had 28 carries in the playoff loss to the Broncos in the 77-78 season. 

3. It's laughable that you think the presence of Franco Harris - an absolutely putrid running back - would have won a 24-7 game vs. the Raiders. Aside from the fact that both John Fuqua and Reggie Harrison were better backs than Harris, you can look at Harris's game longs vs. the Raiders (he played in 10 games vs. the Raiders) and see that he never had good numbers in a game against them.

Then again, you probably watch the Immaculate Reception over and over again and figure he would've caught like 3 of those in that AFC Championship game to change the outcome. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by NFLExpert49

[NFLExpert49]

3 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Attention w_h_o_r_e.... sorry, but this type of post is one that would typically be associated with one whose mama didn't let him suckle enough, who was delivered from a mama whose 'baby daddy' left at first knowledge of his existence...

The opinion shared is one that either is shared by someone who enjoys trolling, or one who  extremely deranged and confused. Nothing...and I mean nothing spewed throughout that entire post was based in fact; it's contrary to the widely known fact, and evidentially-based knowledge to the contrary of the opinion spewed by a self-absorbed, self-hyped individual who uses a self-promoting s/n, in order to make himself feel more important than whatever miserable existence that he actually lives...what a joke... does one actually expect NFL fans to ever take anything that is posted from someone that uses that self-important s/n, seriously?? The hyperbole spewed through that entire vomit-inducing, 'look-at-me' post that was provided is beyond ridiculous.

Myself and the rest of the rational world will  simply move along and continue to know what is actually, fact... which is backed up by the knowledge of millions upon millions of people, over the utterly preposterous notion, and frankly, sad attempt for attention posted by completely, child-like individual.

And, in before the attempt at discrediting me...yes, I am old enough to have watched plenty of Franco Harris during his NFL career.

So, there it is... I fed the troll... I hope he seeks psychological treatment.

What is this "fact," pray tell? What is this "knowledge of millions of people?" 

If you are old enough to have watched plenty of Franco Harris during his NFL career and you were anything but a delusional homer, you would agree with everything I wrote. This isn't even debatable. There are games with him all over Youtube...hundreds of his carries...and you could count on one hand the number of tackles he breaks in them. 

Harris's own peers thought he was a joke. Dave Duerson said he was "soft like a sponge." Jim Brown thought he was a disgrace to running backs. His softness was labeled by the media of the time, "unlike Jim Brown, he runs out of bounds." But it wasn't running out of bounds that defined him; it was going down to the first guy who touched him and not fighting to break the tackle/for extra yards. 

Also, your username says it all about you: Not only is Hines Ward a despicable piece of garbage off the field, but choosing a username that states he should be in the HOF demonstrates how laughably biased and clueless about football you are. Nobody who actually understands the game thinks Ward should be in the HOF. Nobody. 

Of course, there's a far more egregious example of someone in the HOF who should not be...and we all know who that is. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by NFLExpert49

[NFLExpert49]

3 hours ago, warfelg said:

Running into defenders, taking them on, risking turnovers.....makes you good?  2017's broken tackle leaders were Kenyon Drake, LeGarrette Blount, Jay Ajayi, Alvin Kamara, Dion Lewis.  There's exactly one of those running backs that I wouldn't mind having.  Similar thing happened with 2018 where the top list of broken tackle leaders aren't great running backs.

A running back that can avoid contact, protects the ball, and keeps his health to remain available....makes you bad?  I'm sorry but Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Thomlinson, Barry Sanders, Gayle Sayers were the epitome of avoiding contact, and only 1 of those 4 aren't considered one of the top 10 best RB's in history.

On top of that, looking at the top 10 list of rushing yards:

Emmitt Smith (average in broken tackles stats), Walter Payton (could run around as easily as through someone), Barry Sanders (avoided contact), Frank Gore (average in broken tackles), Curtis Martin (about average), LT (avoided a lot of contact), Jerome Bettis (took on contact), Adrian Peterson (takes on contact), Eric Dickerson (avoided contact), Tony Dorsett (about average).

Want to go beyond that to hit Franco? Jim Brown (took on contact), Marshall Faulk (allergic to contact), Edgerrin James (avoided contact), Marcus Allen (about Average).

After that you start to get into the heavy took on contact guys with Thurman Thomas, Fred Taylor, John Riggings, Corey Dillon, Warrick Dunn, Jamal Lewis

These guys that tend to have a lot of broken contact vs the guys that avoid it also see big differences in YPC.  Sure the broken contact guys tend to average more YAC, but last year the average YAC guys saw a breakdown of about 1.8 yards before contact and 1.6 yards after contact for 3.4 yards per carry.  The guys that had less YAC but a big YPC, averaged about 2.8 yards before contact and 1.1 yard after contact, for 3.9 yards per carry.  So yes taking on contact, at times you can have more yards and you gain an average of an extra half yard.  But when you go almost a full yard further before being contacted that YAC becomes insignificant.  

TL;DR ----

Historically or currently there is little correlation between contact and better play from a RB.

"Risking turnovers"...unreal. Are you kidding me? You can not be serious. You just can't be.

Being able to break tackles/gain extra yards when confronted with a tackler is what makes you a good running back. Any running back on the planet can gain yards when everything is blocked and they're untouched. Are you seriously denying this?

Barry Sanders and Gale Sayers were the epitome of making people miss. That takes talent and performance. That's one way to get extra yards. They weren't the epitome of running behind blockers and going down to the first guy who touched them (see Harris, Franco).

Additionally, every single running back you named was infinitely more powerful than Franco Harris. Sanders powered through tackles on plenty of occasions. Harris did not. 

You don't seem to get how this works. I'm not talking about a running back ignoring the blocking and heading straight for contact. I'm talking about a running back having the talent to - when forced to confront a would be tackler - beat that would be tackler - whether it's with power or moves - or at least getting some extra yards before said tackler brings him to the ground.

And Harris was literally the worst back I have ever seen at this. I have never seen a less powerful runner (and to put this in perspective, I have seen every carry of Derek Loville as a feature back), and Harris was a stiff, lumbering 230 pounder who did this. The benefit to having a 230 pound back instead of a finesse Terry Metcalf type is the idea that the 230 pounder will be more powerful. But Harris was less powerful than Metcalf. 

Harris's style was to try to play like Metcalf, but he was stiff and lumbering as he did this. He was dead last in power and in the bottom 25% in make-you-miss.

"Historically or currently there is little correlation between contact and better play from a RB." 

You are incorrectly using the word, "play," as opposed to, "statistics." Better statistics does not mean better play by an individual. What you are missing is that the running backs who average the most yards after contact also tend to be the guys who have to do the most on their own, because the blocking isn't as good. Running through gaping holes untouched gets you better numbers than getting hit in the backfield, breaking the tackle, breaking another tackle, and getting 3 yards out of what should have been a 1 yard loss. 

Also, where in the hell are you getting some of these descriptions for ball carriers and their contact? Edgerrin James avoided contact? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DW1Ku6rhQY

Physical as hell. Broken tackles galore.

I could find videos of broken tackles galore for almost all of the RBs on your list. Faulk was a bit soft, but he was also extremely elusive. Curtis Martin...he was extremely overrated and mostly a product of his blocking as well. Still better than Harris...Martin was the kind of guy who would sneakily get you 6 yards instead of 3 by subtly breaking a tackle and falling forward in a confined area. He was Bill Parcells's dream back.

Frank Gore in 2006 was a tackle-breaking machine. That was also the last year he was an actually great RB.

It's a disgrace to mention Harris in the same sentence as these guys. You're not understanding just how bad Harris was in comparison to them. 

Finally, you misrepresented the data in your "2017 broken tackles leaders" data. Those were the top 5 in broken tackles percentage. That stat leads to some sample size problems. 

The leaders in broken tackles on the 2018 charts seems to be a pretty nice collection of names: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/2017/rotopass-broken-tackles

Saquon Barkley. Christian McCaffrey. Looks like a pretty good indicator to me. Those guys aren't good running backs? 

Here's a 2014 chart: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/broken-tackles-2014-offenses

Marshawn Lynch way at the top? What a surprise. Le'Veon Bell 2. DeMarco Murray in his career year #3. 

 

[Ward4HOF]

2 hours ago, cjfollett said:

Well at least you're a consistent troll. I'll give you that.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197612260rai.htm

Pray tell, why are there no stats for Harris in this game?

 

But, but, he watched him play, and followed his career... surely he remembers this...if, we can jog his memory...

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/12/27/archives/harris-and-bleier-missed-stabler-stars-for-oakland-stabler-sparks.html

 

[Dcash4]

Wait guys! Here comes the evidence!

Oh, nope. Just kidding. Nothing useful to back his claims outside of "i have watched the NFL!" Go sit on your barstool in your varsity jacket and continue to talk about the glory days of that one time you had 3 tackles and that coach that was out to get you, which is obviously why you never made it pro to show that no good Franco Harris who is boss!

Here is an easy one: What was Francos broken tackle percentage? And where did you get the information? Because what you're basing your whole argument on seems strange to be for a league that before 94 all tackles stats were inconsistently kept and thought of as "for amusement only". But, Im sure you tell me about some off the beaten path name to prove how much you know about the game and continue on the path of not producing anything remotely agreeing with your premise. 

Ill share my top 5 with you again, which is 100% fact. 

1) Barry Sanders

2) Franco Harris 

3) Rushard Mendenhall 

4) OJ Simpson 

5) Jim Brown. 

Continue to be the embarrassment of a parent in the stands yelling at your son to RUN NORTH AND SOUTH anytime they try to cut outside...because back in your day...thats what made a real running back. 

[Ward4HOF]

1 hour ago, NFLExpert49 said:

What is this "fact," pray tell? What is this "knowledge of millions of people?" 

If you are old enough to have watched plenty of Franco Harris during his NFL career and you were anything but a delusional homer, you would agree with everything I wrote. This isn't even debatable. There are games with him all over Youtube...hundreds of his carries...and you could count on one hand the number of tackles he breaks in them. 

Harris's own peers thought he was a joke. Dave Duerson said he was "soft like a sponge." Jim Brown thought he was a disgrace to running backs. His softness was labeled by the media of the time, "unlike Jim Brown, he runs out of bounds." But it wasn't running out of bounds that defined him; it was going down to the first guy who touched him and not fighting to break the tackle/for extra yards. 

Also, your username says it all about you: Not only is Hines Ward a despicable piece of garbage off the field, but choosing a username that states he should be in the HOF demonstrates how laughably biased and clueless about football you are. Nobody who actually understands the game thinks Ward should be in the HOF. Nobody. 

Of course, there's a far more egregious example of someone in the HOF who should not be...and we all know who that is. 

https://www.profootballhof.com/players/franco-harris/

Oops... I take it all those who voted him to Semifinalists are clueless, but somehow, a football forum troll knows better... now, you may go back to my initial response for reference... I feel sorry for you...it must be hard going through life as yourself...

https://www.ajc.com/sports/football/the-hall-fame-case-for-hines-ward/aj6m93O1E94z5S7oNk1jDI/

But, since you've been proven wrong on multiple occasions throughout this Post...and, as Twain put it best...

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

[NFLExpert49]

8 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Wait guys! Here comes the evidence!

Oh, nope. Just kidding. Nothing useful to back his claims outside of "i have watched the NFL!" Go sit on your barstool in your varsity jacket and continue to talk about the glory days of that one time you had 3 tackles and that coach that was out to get you, which is obviously why you never made it pro to show that no good Franco Harris who is boss!

Here is an easy one: What was Francos broken tackle percentage? And where did you get the information? Because what you're basing your whole argument on seems strange to be for a league that before 94 all tackles stats were inconsistently kept and thought of as "for amusement only". But, Im sure you tell me about some off the beaten path name to prove how much you know about the game and continue on the path of not producing anything remotely agreeing with your premise. 

Ill share my top 5 with you again, which is 100% fact. 

1) Barry Sanders

2) Franco Harris 

3) Rushard Mendenhall 

4) OJ Simpson 

5) Jim Brown. 

Continue to be the embarrassment of a parent in the stands yelling at your son to RUN NORTH AND SOUTH anytime they try to cut outside...because back in your day...thats what made a real running back. 

It has nothing to do with running north and south. It has to do with actually trying to break tackles and/or make would be tacklers miss. A good running back tries to get every yard he can. He tries to break every tackle, make every guy miss, drag and stiff arm and scratch and claw. He makes the defender actually bring him down; he doesn't go down like a sack of manure the moment a defender gets a hand on him. 

(The only exception would be situational things where you're running out the clock, of course).

Now, no running back is going to actually succeed in breaking the tackle of/juking every defender. But he's going to consistently try, and he's often going to succeed.

Harris never tried and never succeeded. That makes him utterly horrible. There have literally been hundreds of running backs better than him at this.

What was good about Harris? Basically, he had decent straight line speed for a 230 pounder in the 1970s...but it's not like he was a big breakaway threat. He had just 5 touchdowns of 40+ yards in his career and only 11 of 20+. He could catch a dumpoff pass out of the backfield, but so could everyone. Other than that...he at least wasn't Trent Richardson ignoring the hole and running straight into a crowd and getting stuffed. 

And that's it. 

You could find a bunch of undrafted free agents at any point in history who could do the same thing. 

One last thing I forgot to mention: The best runner on the team during the 70s was actually not Sidney Thornton as I said before. I mean, Thornton was the best running back, but the best runner on the team was Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw broke more tackles in isolated games than Harris broke in his entire career. To be fair, Bradshaw had rare running ability...but the thing is, Bradshaw literally would have been a better running back than Harris.