AkronsWitness Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, wackywabbit said: Interesting to see. I remember when he signed his last contract, even at the time it was acknowledged that he took well under his market value. I guess he's changed his views later in his career. Good for him. I always laugh when fans suggest players should take less money from billionaire NFL teams so that the teams have more cap space to increase their super bowl odds by 0.01%. The problem is his timing. Hes 30 years old now coming off a season ending injury asking to NOW be the highest paid player in the league at his position. Thats not a smart move for Denver, who isnt exactly rolling in cap space, to meet his request. Hes still a great player but that money is a little excessive. If they trade CHJ, they better also be taking a QB and quit playing around like they are going to compete with Flacco and no CHJ Edited April 24, 2019 by AkronsWitness 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 5 2 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said: The problem is his timing. Hes 30 years old now coming off a season ending injury asking to NOW be the highest paid player in the league at his position. Thats not a smart move for Denver, who isnt exactly rolling in cap space, to meet his request. Hes still a great player but that money is a little excessive. If they trade CHJ, they better also be taking a QB and quit playing around like they are going to compete with Flacco and no CHJ Frankly, that would be a huge blessing long-term IMO. I don't know that they need to take QB now or this year, but the illusion that we actually can win now is just that - an illusion. It's only because of our high standards and fanbase expectations that this is being said IMO (although no doubt Fangio feels that way). The players at end of season acknowledged openly it was a rebuild. Nothing's really changed since then, just a new hire and fresh outlook and our history creates this expectation we should be able to turn things around faster than is likely given our roster and QB issues. I don't blame Harris Jr. at all for this - he's entitled to ask. He's been a warrior and leader for us, and still a great player. But I agree with your take on the value - and if we're not a contender, that's a bad move - so long as we get full value in return for him, then it's a blessing if we move on now IMO, than extend him at above-market value and still aren't a legit contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 @Broncofan Problem is Elway/Ellis are too stubborn to commit to a full rebuild. and have been notoriously gun-shy when it comes to making a move for a top ranked QB prospect. The last time they took a top ranked QB prospect in the draft it was Jay Cutler in 2006 I believe and even he was the 3rd ranked QB in that class. This time around is no different and if Elway doesnt get bold and take some risk (like Haskins/Lock) to turn this around--it could cost him his job if the Joe Flacco led Broncos go 5-11 another year. If they trade CHJ, then trade him and get more assets to rejuvenate this roster similar to last years rookie class. But you cant get passive in the draft, go reshape this team and be aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said: @Broncofan Problem is Elway/Ellis are too stubborn to commit to a full rebuild. and have been notoriously gun-shy when it comes to making a move for a top ranked QB prospect. The last time they took a top ranked QB prospect in the draft it was Jay Cutler in 2006 I believe and even he was the 3rd ranked QB in that class. This time around is no different and if Elway doesnt get bold and take some risk (like Haskins/Lock) to turn this around--it could cost him his job if the Joe Flacco led Broncos go 5-11 another year. If they trade CHJ, then trade him and get more assets to rejuvenate this roster similar to last years rookie class. But you cant get passive in the draft, go reshape this team and be aggressive. Yeah, trust me that's the problem in a nutshell, you get no argument from me there - I was gutted when we went Chubb over QB (and still am, even with Rosen's 2018 struggles behind that historically awful OL and OC Mike McCoy <shudder> and Chubb being decent - we'd still be miles ahead with Rosen, Jackson or Allen in the fold - even though there's no way at the time, 1.5 Jackson would have been justifiable). Elway was willing to go full rebuild in 2011-12. He hasn't since. If he had committed 2017 to a full rebuild, we'd be far better off. There's no doubt on many other orgs, 2019 would have been a full-on rebuild year...but not in DEN. Still, Elway embraced the rebuild early in 2018 - it would be far more efficient to do it right off the bat - the timing of Fangio's hire and Ellis' greed does make it an iffier prop - but then again, it could offer the PR escape. Most of the informed fanbase realizes the odds are we aren't really contenders - so many of us do hope we avoid the win-now investments that often hamstring the future well-being. I do think Harris' timing might have been a blessing. A commitment long-term if we aren't contenders is a bad, bad idea. It will be interesting to see how we draft with this news - I'd have argued a CB should be picked in our top 3 rounds anyways (without forcing going need over BPA early), since after 2019 we only had 2 young CB's under contract we could rely on (Callahan and Yiadom, and Callahan's not cheap, albeit not super-expensive). FWIW I think Haskins would be a great pick. Lock...not so much. We'll see. That's for another thread lol. Edited April 24, 2019 by Broncofan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Broncofan said: Yeah, trust me that's the problem in a nutshell. Elway was willing to go full rebuild in 2011-12. He hasn't since. If he had committed 2017 to a full rebuild, we'd be far better off. There's no doubt on many other orgs, 2019 would have been a full-on rebuild year...but not in DEN. Still, Elway embraced the rebuild early in 2018 - it would be far more efficient to do it right off the bat - the timing of Fangio's hire and Ellis' greed does make it an iffier prop - but then again, it could offer the PR escape. Most of the informed fanbase realizes the odds are we aren't really contenders - so many of us do hope we avoid the win-now investments that often hamstring the future well-being. I do think Harris' timing might have been a blessing. A commitment long-term if we aren't contenders is a bad, bad idea. It will be interesting to see how we draft with this news - I'd have argued a CB should be picked in our top 3 rounds anyways (without forcing going need over BPA early), since after 2019 we only had 2 young CB's under contract we could rely on (Callahan and Yiadom, and Callahan's not cheap, albeit not super-expensive). I agree, I would be trying to find away to trade Harris, come away with Dwayne Haskins and Deandre Baker and keep pushing forward. Edited April 24, 2019 by AkronsWitness 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Trading away assets + $15M AAV for a slot CB? Hard pass. Not saying he isn't good, but that's too much for what he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said: I agree, I would be trying to find away to trade Harris, come away with Dwayne Haskins and Deandre Baker and keep pushing forward. That would be a fantastic result IMO. Just no Lock, please. His skill set and our track record with that type..no thanks. For those who aren't familiar with DEN, Mike Klis is the local beat reporter who is completely plugged into the FO (so much that he's a FO apologist, his own actual takes are pretty awful - but he's a window into what the FO is thinking - and their mouthpiece to get the fanbase prepared for their ideas, he sends out stuff often as a preview of later decisions, and also to get a feel from the fanbase). His take here isn't quite yet gospel, but he's not putting this out with the FO already approving it IMO. So take it FWIW. Again, because Elway can franchise Harris affordably for 2020, at 2 years 22M (7.8M 2019, 13.5-14M 2020 tag), Elway shouldn't feel pressured to trade - but if there's an offer that's fair value for a shutdown CB...well the draft weekend just got even more interesting for DEN and us fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Danger said: Trading away assets + $15M AAV for a slot CB? Hard pass. Not saying he isn't good, but that's too much for what he is. Again though, Harris isn't just a slot CB - he's actually about top 10-15 outside CB, and played 60 percent of his snaps last year outside. He's just the top slot CB in the game. Who's versatile enough to play outside at a high level (just not best-in-game like he is in the slot). And again, that 15M AAV is Harris' demand to stay in DEN - he said extension or trade. A team trading for him only has to deal assets, and they can get Harris cheaply for 2/22M before they have to worry about an extension. That changes the calculus quite a bit. Edited April 24, 2019 by Broncofan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 What could the Broncos realistically expect in return for trading Harris? He's still a top CB, but is 30 and wants a huge contract. I can't see many teams being willing to give a 30-year-old corner that type of contract while also giving up significant draft capital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, DawgX said: What could the Broncos realistically expect in return for trading Harris? He's still a top CB, but is 30 and wants a huge contract. I can't see many teams being willing to give a 30-year-old corner that type of contract while also giving up significant draft capital. Again, though, Harris' demand for an extension is with DEN - it's an extension to stay, or trade him - presumably to a contender. Harris has made it no secret the losing is killing his mojo. Obviously he wants to be paid, but unlike a guy who hasn't signed a tag, being under contract for 2019, Harris has to report and play out the year. So a contender can bank on the 2 years / 22M of cost certainty. The other part - what is the market available of alternatives, and the buyer list? That's probably just as important. Realistically, I don't think a 2019 1st is reasonable. There's way too much valuation of present-year draft picks at this time of the draft. For a contender though, a 2020 1st may be palatable (given the year's wait knocks down present-day value). If DEN isn't the only seller of ready-now shutdown CB's (thinking PP and ARI, Howard <who isn't in their class> & MIA), though, that changes the calculus quite a bit. If they are the only game in town, though...well you get the idea. Edited April 24, 2019 by Broncofan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Just now, Broncofan said: Again, though, Harris' demand for an extension is with DEN - it's an extension to stay, or trade him. That's not how it works. He wants the contract regardless of where he goes. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Danger said: That's not how it works. He wants the contract regardless of where he goes. If he was under the tag, yes, he could absolutely refuse to sign, and dictate terms - exactly what Frank Clark did. But Harris Jr. doesn't get that choice this year, as he's still under contract for 2019, he has to report and play while under contract. If he doesn't report by early August (30 days before the 1st reg. season game of the year) - his service time does NOT toll - so DEN then owns his rights for 2020 at the same amount, even if he returns later on and plays games - that's what happened to Aaron Donald in 2017. And that's before you get into 30K/day fines once you aren't reporting to mandatory activities. Of course this is a bad PR situation I'm describing - but this is why players under no contract have such little leverage. Once they are in franchise tag years, totally different situation. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-the-five-players-still-holding-out-and-the-dynamics-of-each-situation/ Very important distinction. Harris has to report by early August or risk having the same 8.8M salary for 2020. But this isn't a Clark redux. Really, it comes down more to the CB alternatives for the buyers who are interested, and how much competition there is, vs. Elway's willingness to deal, or just wait it out, knowing Harris has to report. Edited April 24, 2019 by Broncofan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoundrel Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Love CHJ but he wants 15 mil a year at 30 coming off an injury. Trade him if you can get something worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarCrazy2832 Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 What is his value with a big contract looming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riftty Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 I'm a little sad the Rams are tight on cap space. I could see Wade doing work with this guy..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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