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true2form

Pick is in, #4 Clelin Ferrell DE Clemson

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I think this was a great pick. When I was going over Oliver with NYRaider I said I wouldn’t mind Ferrell at this pick and I’m glad we went that direction in regards to how the board fell. We drafted an actual football player as opposed to a combine champ. Those of you comparing this to the Miller pick obviously don’t see that. Comparing the two is laughable considering Miller was drafted on measurables and Ferrell was on tape. 

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10 minutes ago, OG_C2X said:

Josh Allen is a pure ELITE 3-4 OLB. He is excellent in coverage. Is quick. Has an explosive first step. As long as he is standing up. He doesn't play with the leverage needed to be stout against the run and set the edge as a pure 4-3 DE. 

Then I guess the Raiders are running the wrong system.

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1 minute ago, Rich7sena said:

Then I guess the Raiders are running the wrong system.

PG is one of the best DC in the league. He has for 2 years drafted and signed players suited for one system. You dont change that because of a player in the draft.

You were the kid that insisted if you tried hard enough the square peg would fit in the round hole weren't you.

Allen isnt that much better then Ferrell, even in a vaccuum. In our system Ferrell is the better player. 

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xD

Pretty confused to login and see my posts from last year quoted.. still stand by those posts BTW. I'm also ready to admit I'm a FAN and can't dedicate anywhere near the amount of time the PROFESSIONALS can spend researching football.

 

Also want to add that I'm the original raiders4life and was on the original forum well over 10 years ago (closing in on 15?). Sorry that the (now) generic name caused confusion. :P

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49 minutes ago, OG_C2X said:

PG is one of the best DC in the league. He has for 2 years drafted and signed players suited for one system. You dont change that because of a player in the draft.

You were the kid that insisted if you tried hard enough the square peg would fit in the round hole weren't you.

Allen isnt that much better then Ferrell, even in a vaccuum. In our system Ferrell is the better player. 

Geunther’s so good he benched both Conley and Worley to start the season last year.

Allen non fitting the system is a misnomer. He could easily play right end. How exactly does Key fit the defense but Allen does not? 

And look what I can do too: Allen is a Way better prospect than Ferrell in a vacuum. And in our system, Allen would still be better than Ferrell.

At the end of the day the Raiders liked Ferrell more then Allen. I doubt they thought Allen didn’t “fit the scheme.”

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27 minutes ago, RaidersAreOne said:

 

Well there's your answer straight from the man, LMFAO.

I understand not being happy with picks, I've had plenty over the years, but I can't stand it when guys on here just can't understand what's going on.

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3 minutes ago, true2form said:

Well there's your answer straight from the man, LMFAO.

I understand not being happy with picks, I've had plenty over the years, but I can't stand it when guys on here just can't understand what's going on.

Ferrell fits his defense like a glove and he’ll be a building block for the rest of the defense. I’m glad we stayed true to the guys we targeted and were confident in their evaluations. Seems like the staff are all on one page. Refreshing! Can’t wait to see it all come together. 

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Kind of interesting nugget - Ted Nguyen said that he heard Ferrell was a Gruden pick on his podcast tonight.

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13 hours ago, Silver&Black88 said:

It appears we never thought much of Allen. I think the proof is in the pudding at this point.

Dude. Preach. This is why I have a bone to pick. I like Ferrell, but not as a top 5 pick. Scheme fit is important but if he is a perfect fit, and he isn't a 12 sack a year guy, then maybe the value isn't there. I acknowledge that I've beaten the trade down horse to death by now, but it's not without merit. Did we really have so much tunnel vision that we had to have him specifically? And if so, why? Are his leadership skills really more important than football skills of other high character guys who were available? I do think Oliver was a smokescreen mask the scent of desire for Q based on the emphasis on intangibles. But for the lack of value in the spot of the pick, lack of top-notch talent (most had him in the 10-15 range at best), and the seeming lack of value in the system (PG DEs are rarely, if ever, top tier)....I don't know....just not in love with the choice. Seems like we were locked into either a DE or him specifically. Granted, if Q was available then who knows

I think most on this board would probably agree that Ferrell was a slight reach at 4, and I'm sure we would all take a trade down to say, 13 and take him there no questions. However, you have to have a dance partner, and once Q, Bosa and Murray had gone I'm not sure anyone would have been willing to trade up. I think most NFL teams didn't rate Haskins as a top 10 pick and it's hard to see a team trade up for a guy like Jones or Lock and the draft bore that out. We probably were secretly hoping for a small trade down, recoup a third and take the player who we'd probably take at 4 anyway after seeing the first 3 picks but it just didn't happen. I think we just went with plan B as that was what our FO determined as our best option given our board.

Personally, I had Ferrell as #4 on my 'big board' and thought he was the #3 DE prospect in this class so I'm not too sad, would have absolutely loved Sweat at #24 to pair up (as I had his as my #2 DE) but I totally understand why we went with Jacobs too.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Mr Raider said:

Most teams do draft for need though. Yeah you don't always draft the most pressing need, but they're needs. Do the Packers, Steelers, Chargers, Seahawks, etc target QBs early in drafts? You can look at every teams top 6ish needs in any draft and see that those are the areas the team focused on fixing the most. Sure you wont necessarily take the most pressing need all the time, but you typically dont take guys that are at your greatest areas of strength either. 

After thinking about the Ferrell pick more and more Josh Allen, Devin White, and Oliver are really the only guys I think you can make a claim are better prospects and a realistic target for us at 4. Some might say Gary, but I had him as a clearly inferior prospect to Ferrell, but some wont just because he has a ridiculous athletic profile. Fine, different discussion. Focusing on the prior three I think its entirely possible that the staff is high on Hurst and Hall to a lesser extent, you can say that neither of those guys are reason to pass up a blue chip prospect and thats fine, but perhaps they didnt see Oliver in that light? He isnt without questions in size, some minor injury concerns, and he wasnt super productive rushing the passer. Now that could be scheme, it could be talent around him, but its all a projection. Perhaps they didnt think taking Oliver was going to make this team remarkably better. You likely cant play him and Hurst together, Hall likely has to go if you take Oliver. 

White has an argument to be made, he has an elite athletic profile, very good productivity at a major school, but he also lacks instincts, hes new to the position and he plays a position that isnt regularly drafted in the top 4. The questions of positional value would have been brought up. 

Allen is one where most people will say its clear cut, Allen is the superior prospect, I dont necessarily subscribe to that but I know i am in the minority there. He checks almost all of the boxes, freak speed, good production, never been in any type of trouble, but there were too many times that I saw him running unblocked for a sack, there were times I saw him moved off the ball in run defense. In a 3-4 I would value him over Ferrell a great deal, in a 4-3 though I actually think hes a SLB that kicks down to DE in the nickel. And thats fine, you can make that work, we've done it with guys like Mack and Whibley to a much lesser extent. I just don't love Josh Allen the way most do. I had him behind Bosa and Sweat firmly. The thing I was most impressed with him and made him unique to me was his coverage ability for a man playing the edge as often as he does. But that brings memories of Barr and Manny Lawson types. 

I actually think if Sweats heart diagnosis was a mistake that he should have been a candidate for 4th. 

But it all goes to my point that nobody in this draft came withoit questions because nobody in any class does. Boards are subjective. Ferrell was a consensus top 5-10 pick after the national championship game, but hes not the type to shine in all of the things that take place leading up to the draft after the season ends. Hes not going to be the guy that looks shredded in shorts and a tee shirt, hes not the guy that goes out there and blows up the combine, but when you turn the tape on you consistently see this guy dominating the man across from him and getting to the QB. He's the guy thats going to make clutch plays and preform up to his absolute best when the games get more important. Theres something to be said for all of that. Does he have the most unique athletic profile? No. He's not the fastest, but I'll tell you, he has some of the most impressive power I've seen from someone on the edge in the past 4 or 5 years. He is consistently pushing his man backwards or shoving him from one side or the other, he shows refinement in his pass rushing that you rarely ever see from someone thats a 21 year old. He plays with a motor that always seems to be on. He plays smart. Has terrific discipline in staying home and not leaving pockets for the QB to escape to, he doesnt run straight up field leaving running lanes open, he doesnt often get fooled by play action or make poor decisions on zone reads, hes well coached, disciplined, seasoned, technically sound, and gives consistently good effort. 

Sometimes its like we assume you dont run the fastest in a straight line so that means you dont have a high ceiling, or that if you are already technically sound your ceiling is lower. I disagree with that. Ive seen for 15 years now a league full of guys that dont possess elite athleticism by NFL standards go on to dominate the sport. Jerry Rice was never a burner, he was a seasoned route runner at an early age, Richard Sherman was slow by a corners standard, Jared Allen wasn't going to blow you away in a workout without pads. There's more to it than just being an athlete. The game is complex. 

I say all of this to say that I can see why a guy like Ferrell could have reasonably  been in the top 4 or 5 of their big board. Mayock and Gruden might trust the tape, they might not value the workouts as highly as others, and that isnt even talking about character and leadership qualities that are clearly important to them in a new rebuild in their image which makes sense, and Ferrell has in spades. 

Now maybe they're wrong. Only time will tell. Maybe all his pros dont outweigh the cons that he isnt a superior, freak athlete, maybe he doesnt have the baseline requirement you have to have to be an elite player, but they're saying they saw this man dominate for years at a big time school, against great competition. They think his skills translate. Maybe their board being different than others would have been will be a mistake. But what excites me the most? THEY CLEARLY HAVE A PLAN. High character, leadership, productivity, loving football, hard workers, experience in big games and clutch situations, they want guys that they are confident can be contributors to a winner, even if its by a collection of them and not a couple generational talents propping it all up like a house of cards... And that can equal sustainability. But even outside of that a clear theme and plan would NOT be possible to see, we wouldn't have a clue what they're doing or what the goal is if we didn't have a front office that was united on that. And I think thats the bare minimum to a successful franchise, a front office from the GM down that wants the same things and has a plan on how they achieve those. Maybe they will all be wrong about what it takes to do that, but the plan is there, it feels like a team effort. And thats always been my biggest concern with Gruden. If they cacan keep this up im fine giving them a few years to reach that goal, and if Ferrell is a guy they think is a part of the steps needed and they had him higher than most on their board? Im good with it. What happens on the field will answer all of those questions. 

Excellent post and I wholeheartedly agree with nearly all of this. Only things I would add is that I think after Q and Bose were gone the FO must have had the feelers out and known that Sweat was probably going to take a fall and though I believe he has a very high ceiling they reasoned Ferrell was the safest pick, at this exact point in time Ferrell is the better and more rounded player. You're right though about prospects being downgraded sometimes for being too polished or too technical and we hear the high ceiling/low floor analogy a lot for players like Ferrell and it's a bit unfair. I guess we all would like to be the clever guy who picks that athletic freak like Sweat or Burns who can be a rough diamond to polish into a HoF talent. 

This could have been a big factor for perhaps the most scrutinised first draft of a guy who's sat in front of millions and publicly rated prospects and picks. I think if anything Mayock was always going to be slightly conservative, I'm not sure how much influence he had over Gruden ultimately but I can't help but think Mayock didn't want the risk or notoriety taking a boom/bust player with his first ever pick which will of course be analysed and over analysed over the coming years. If it's a solid pick it'll be a non story for the team and the player.

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2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

We probably were secretly hoping for a small trade down, recoup a third and take the player who we'd probably take at 4 anyway after seeing the first 3 picks but it just didn't happen. I think we just went with plan B as that was what our FO determined as our best option given our board.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/29/nfl-draft-fmia-peter-king/?cid=fmiatw

Quote

Now it’s Friday morning, the day after the Ferrell-Josh Jacobs-Johnathan Abram makeover, and I’m in the same chair in Mayock’s office that Gruden was in 24 hours earlier when just the two of them hatched the exact plan for their three-choice first round:

• At number four, try to trade down for value, but whether at four or as low as they’d like to risk going, 13 to Miami, be sure to procure Clemson defensive end Clelin Ferrell.

You're right, they were hoping to trade down and land Ferrell but, as stated later in the article, they didn't get any offer to trade down.

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29 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/29/nfl-draft-fmia-peter-king/?cid=fmiatw

You're right, they were hoping to trade down and land Ferrell but, as stated later in the article, they didn't get any offer to trade down.

That's a really interesting article, thanks for posting that. I'm glad Mayock was able to influence Gruden if it's an accurate take as who knows what could have happened with 3 first round picks if Gruden had just had his way :D

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4 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

That's a really interesting article, thanks for posting that. I'm glad Mayock was able to influence Gruden if it's an accurate take as who knows what could have happened with 3 first round picks if Gruden had just had his way :D

Seems like Gruden would have traded up for Jacobs.

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6 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

Seems like Gruden would have traded up for Jacobs.

I said it in the draft thread.. gruden seems like a pick the guy now type of drafter. Gruden wants his guy and doesn't really care if his value is 3rd and has a mid 2nd pick. He is willing to give up some value it seems. 

 

Which rankings for the most part is based on some opinion anyway.

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