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1[12]: Rashan Gary [EDGE; Michigan]


CWood21

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35 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Let me ask you this, would you draft a physically limited pass rusher with strong college production OR an athletically gifted pass rusher with poor production in college?

 

31 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

In other words, Ferrell or Gary...

Eh....I'd say it is more like Jaylon Ferguson or Gary.  But either works.

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3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

So everybody is over the moon happy about a pick

Link?

I only know of a few people "over the moon happy" about the Gary pick, but if it's "everybody", I'd like to see some verification of that.

Also, if you want to see Gary make plays, watch his 2017 tape against OSU- he was a monster.

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4 minutes ago, Donzo said:

Which one had poor production?

I guess "poor" being relative in comparison to some of the other choices. As I've stated before, I don't think Gary's production was "poor," but it wasn't Ferrell or Burns level production if we are just going by the stats. 

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2 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

I guess "poor" being relative in comparison to some of the other choices. As I've stated before, I don't think Gary's production was "poor," but it wasn't Ferrell or Burns level production if we are just going by the stats. 

So, you were referring to Gary as the player with "poor" production, correct?

For Gary's stats, on another site there was an excellent breakdown of his three seasons at UM.

In 2016, he was an 18 yr old true Freshman in the  B10... I don't know how anyone can complain about his performance... Correct?

In 2017, he was a 19 yr old true Sophomore in the B10... His best season; he was very productive, especially at the end of the year against OSU and USC.

In 2018, he was 20 yr old true Junior in the B10... Here's were his production comes into question. So, the question is, why?... There are plenty of reasons for it, just break it down.

 

 

 

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I feel like the "poor production" thing just gets repeated over an over again is just because the "explain a prospect in one sentence" version of Gary is something like "Unlimited athletic potential, but where was the production." If he was actually seen as a top 5 type pick a la Jadeveon Clowney who was dogged with similar concerns in college, we would have dug deep on things like scheme and invented mantas like "disruption is production" but he wasn't considered as "sexy" a prospect so the mainstream football media glossed over him for the most part.

Personally there is very little I care about less than "college production" since it doesn't seem to correlate to much (compare Jarvis Jones and Clay Matthews, for instance).  Gary's shoulder and the thing with his weird talent agency thing are much more concerning than "he didn't get sacks at Michigan."

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2 minutes ago, Donzo said:

So, you were referring to Gary as the player with "poor" production, correct?

For Gary's stats, on another site there was an excellent breakdown of his three seasons at UM.

In 2016, he was an 18 yr old true Freshman in the  B10... I don't know how anyone can complain about his performance... Correct?

In 2017, he was a 19 yr old true Sophomore in the B10... His best season; he was very productive, especially at the end of the year against OSU and USC.

In 2018, he was 20 yr old true Junior in the B10... Here's were his production comes into question. So, the question is, why?... There are plenty of reasons for it, just break it down.

 

 

 

This is exactly what I said a page earlier. 

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A few things that Rashan Gary has going in his favor that I want to make note of:

1. His elite, natural born intangibles

2. A great surrounding cast in Clark, Daniels and the Smith's 

3. Great defensive minded coach in Mike Pettine

4. And a seemingly damn good OLB coach in Mike Smith, who just came off a great season coaching Ford and Houston in Kansas City

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On 4/26/2019 at 7:30 AM, Packerraymond said:

So I've gone back and watched everything available from 2017 and 2018 on Gary, here's my synopsis:

Run Support: Guy is going to be an elite edge setter, the strength is there, laughs at TE's when they try and match him up 1-1. Engages, sits, reads the play and sheds when matched up on a TE. Think this is probably the reason they announced him as a LB, they want him setting the edge. When matched up with the OT, able to engage, bench press the OL and hold his ground while reading the play. Doesn't shed the OTs as well but that's the be expected, when you're the edge defender your goal is to hold containment and not allow the play into the alley, if you funnel the play back into the rest of your front 7 you've done your job, regardless of whether or not you can shed and make the tackle.

When he's lined up inside at the 3 tech he's not quite as good. Doesn't have the mass to sit and hold a double team, banging down there is not his game. He's more of a classic 4-3 UT in that regard if played inside, he'd need to penetrate and try and beat his man off the ball. The run game is really why I think we announced him as a LB. When he played the 5 or 7/9 tech he was a much better run defender. 

Pass Rushing: Best move right now is definitely the bull rush. The old Mayock saying "he can convert speed to power" well Gary does this easily. Explodes off the line and seeks to make contact with the OT. Has both a two hand bull and a one hand bull and they are equally as effective. When he wins the hand battle and gets his hand/(s) on the OL's chest, he's walking him back to the QB, there were no stalemates on tape. Hands are heavy and there is some serious power there, gets low and can drive.

Between his long arms, explosion and heavy hands he's like a starting pitcher with a high 90s fastball, his "offspeed" stuff so to speak is raw and unrefined. Just like a high 90s fastball, an explosive bullrush is the meat and potatoes of a rusher that will play all day long and is always the first thing on an OL's mind. To get beat around the edge or with a spin is one thing, to go straight man to man in a match of strengths and get put on your *** or driven right in the QB's lap is a shot to any OL's manhood and something always on an OL's mind when you're 1-1 with a guy like Gary who you know is talented enough to do so.

For that reason the counters will all play if he can refine them. Shows only a rare inside counter and a speed arc rush at Michigan, nothing else. There isn't a spin yet, no swim, no slap, dip and rip. This is the #1 area of coaching need for Gary, his counter moves. His speed arc rush isn't good right now, I think he has the hips to do it, but he lets the OL get his hands on him and ride him around the QB. Doesn't matter how fluid you are if the OL has both hands on you, he's going to have control.

The first thing I'd work on him with if I was Pettine/Montgomery/Smith is combining that excellent one hand bull with a speed arc. Instead of slamming that big ole hand right in the chest of that OL, aim for the point on his pads where his armpit/shoulder meet. Neutralize that outside arm, bench him off of you like you do in the bull rush, now just run the arc to the QB. Control him instead of letting him control you. Once you have a powerful bullrush and a deadly counter like that, anything else you add like a spin or a swim is only going to make your opponent think even harder pre-snap on 3rd and 10.

I will say I liked what I saw on stunts, I think Michigan was VERY bland in the usage of an athlete like Gary, too often these college coaches plug these guys in and say "you're a big stud, just go beat the guy across from you." Michigan could've done much more with him. I'd love to see him work stunts with Clark/Daniels much more often than Michigan did so with him.

Overall: I didn't see hustle issues at all with Gary, his motor ran consistently, he plays hard and he cares. I think there is a driven narrative among your stud athletes like Metcalf or Gary that "they're so athletic but their stats weren't great, lazy, character red flag, high bust chance." I've fought you guys all offseason on both Gary and Metcalf as I don't see those traits in either. Gary is clearly schemed for when an offense goes up against him. Double teams and chips from TE/RB's going into shallow routes are a common occurance for him on passing downs.

The athletic ability plays, the power plays and there is effort. Worst case, we don't get a counter move out of him and he becomes a bull rushing/edge setter. Best case you get him to run the arc and develop an inside spin to go with the bull rush and he's a straight up terror.

Ceiling: Cam Jordan: 10+ sack mainstay who sits at 280 pounds, not quite as heavy as the interior guys but much bigger than most EDGE guys. Uses his size, strength and power to beat OTs and has speed and explosion to blow by IOL. Array of pass rush moves and a nightmare for OL.

Floor: Nick Perry: Bull rush only type outside rusher who is great at setting an edge in the run game. Will never be a truly dominant rusher because he lacks an elite counter, but like Perry did, can stack some successes into a 10+ sack season or two. Still useful as a player but always leaves you wanting more due to untapped potential.

Somehow I missed this post in all the excitement, thx for the insight on Gary - top notch stuff

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Is it possible that we run more 4-3 and use him as an OLB, like Anthony Barr?  I see both Smiths as DEs.  And 4-3 is supposed to be beneficial to interior players like Daniels and Clark.  Gary seems like someone you don't want to run at, and someone whose blitzing ability that you absolutely have to account for.

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We're not running anything that has less than 5 DBs as base. We'll have a mix of 4 and 5 fronts but both will be paired with 5 DBs as "base". It's 2019, this should be universally understood.

But no, I dont see Gary being one of the OTBLB's.

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