1[12]: Rashan Gary [EDGE; Michigan]

[HighCalebR]

I think this whole argument shakes down to- there's reason to be concerned and reasons to be excited about Gary. Not quite an all star prospect, just hope he gets used correctly.

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, deathstar said:

Pressures. If a guy is winning 50+ times a season then he's more likely to do that again next year. 

I'm not sure why you're asking me about pass rushers who can't win with speed. Are you asking if there are players with fast 3 cones who aren't good pass rushers? Below you'll find the top 3 cones posted in mockdraftable's database among DEs. There's like 2-3 great players and a bunch of nothing.

Kamalei Correa
DEBoise State, 2016
6.78s*
Randy Gregory
DENebraska, 2015
6.79s*
James Cowser
DESouthern Utah, 2016
6.8s
Kony Ealy
DEMissouri, 2014
6.83s
Barkevious Mingo
DELSU, 2013
6.84s
Sam Hubbard
DEOhio State, 2018
6.84s
Jordan Willis
DEKansas State, 2017
6.85s
J.J. Watt
DEWisconsin, 2011
6.88s
Jamaal Anderson
DEArkansas, 2007
6.88s
Joey Bosa
DEOhio State, 2016
6.89s
Devin Taylor
DESouth Carolina, 2013
6.89s
Jake Bequette
DEArkansas, 2012
6.9s
Vinny Curry
DEMarshall, 2012
6.9s
Vic Beasley
DEClemson, 2015
6.91s

Okay, sure, pressures are probably better than sacks (I haven't run the correlations, but that would make sense). but where are you getting these commonly available and uniformly evaluated pressure statistics? 

Also, there's a bunch of good rushers on that list. 

Also also, where are you getting the idea that all you need is a good 3-cone time to be a good rusher. Nobody has ever made that statement. 

I don't even know why I'm having this conversation at this point. This isn't a difficult concept. 

[Joe]

I think our biggest concern about him was his shoulder, yeah? I remember thinking he could potentially by Gute's Bustin Harrell with that pick, but IIRC, the shoulder isn't an issue now?

[deathstar]

2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

 

I don't even know why I'm having this conversation at this point. This isn't a difficult concept. 

I don’t think you’re understanding my posts. If you’d like to talk about defining the concept of “turning the corner” and evaluating its relative importance to pass rushing, then we can. But whatever conversation you’re having right now I’m not interested in.

[AlexGreen#20]

8 minutes ago, deathstar said:

I don’t think you’re understanding my posts. If you’d like to talk about defining the concept of “turning the corner” and evaluating its relative importance to pass rushing, then we can. But whatever conversation you’re having right now I’m not interested in.

What is there to define? it's a common football term.

Your edge rusher lines up one step off the outside shoulder of the tackle. The center snaps the ball. Your edge rusher takes 3-4 hard steps straight upfield or at a slight angle towards the QB, like he's in a dead sprint. He's trying to get to a spot on the field with the depth  roughly equivalent to where the QB will settle at the end of his drop back. He's trying to beat the offensive tackle to that spot. The tackle will be backing up in his kick slide, so he'll be slower, but he has one fewer step to take and knows the count. 

When your edge rusher gets to that spot, he's going to "flatten out" aka make a sharp turn towards the QB. This is usually where point of contact happens with the OL. If your edge rusher is good at turning the corner, he'll be able to make a sharp turn that will put him on a path to the QB. If he's not good at it for any number of reasons, he's going to end up not getting there. If he can't make the turn at speed, he's going to end up not being able to make a sharp enough turn and be pushed past the QB. If he's not good at presenting a small target at the point of contact, the offensive lineman is going to push him past the pocket.  

Go to 2:29: 

Miller gets to the "corner" (or the intersection point of him and the offensive lineman) in a hurry, and bends around it. Note how he's almost 45 degrees to the ground. He even bends at the waist so that the area for the offensive lineman to hit with his hands is tiny. He does that without losing any real momentum.

 

 

[HighCalebR]

Miller is why I REALLY wanted Burns, especially with Zad in house.  3rd + in a big situation are you really leaving your TE in to block? Almost impossible to stop him from at least pressuring. Leaving Fack out on an EDGE I'd feel comfortable leaving the RB on him. Doesnt seem quite as scary letting the QB step outside instead of stepping into the pocket. I'm thinking well still be seeing quite a few overloads this year. Gambles boy.

[boratt]

Von Miller is a once in every 5-10 year speed rusher

 

Gary doesn’t have to be an NFL HOF player to be good. I’d be ecstatic with a Packer HOF level career. 

[MrBobGray]

To add to the point AG20 is making, the key thing to understand is that for the OT the first step is key. If you're worried about speed, you're much more likely to take a long kick step at the snap to try to stay even with the rusher. This puts you out of position and with poor body alignment if they're going for a bull rush or an inside rush.  This is why you see a guy like Von Miller or Khalil Mack (or for an even more telling example, Bruce Irvin against Bulaga in that 2012 Seahawks game) put the OT on their *** with a long arm while much bigger power rushers can't; its tough to go from mirroring to anchoring as fast as a speed rusher can convert speed to power. 

For a guy you know can't turn the corner, you can play the power stuff every snap and just react to the speed rush, because you know he's not going to be able to duck the punch even if he flies up field. 

It's not that you can't be a good rusher if you can't get small, but you do lose a huge advantage that anyone who can turn the corner has; uncertainty. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by MrBobGray

[boratt]

Gary vs Bradley Chubb

6’4 3/8” vs 6’4 3/8”

277lbs vs 269lb

Wingspan 81 7/8” vs 79”

Arm Length 34 1/8” vs 34”

40: 4.58 vs 4.65

Vert: 38” vs 36”

Broad: 120” vs 121”

3-cone 7.26 vs 7.37

shuttle 4.29 vs 4.41

Bench 26 vs 24 

 

Gary has the slight edge in all areas including length, size, speed, explosion and agility. Chubb had 12 sacks his rookie year. 

Ive watched three full games of Gary’s college tape. He can rush with both speed and power. And I’ve seen him throw OTs on their backside because transferred speed into power. 

Right now, based on athletic upside and based on college game tape (not just the sack stat line), I believe Gary is going to be a 10 sack guy in the NFL. 

In his healthy sophomore year he was top 10 in pressures for the season. That’s consistent production. 

And if you watch the tape, he plays a violent and impactful game. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by boratt

[boratt]

Gary will benefit from having Daniels and Clark pushing the pocket. He will also benefit being in a rotation with three other guys. I really do believe Gary is going to not just get his 6-10 sacks in 2019, but he’s going to do it with so much power and explosion that we’re going to have no doubt in our minds he’s a player. 

[AlexGreen#20]

21 minutes ago, boratt said:

Gary vs Bradley Chubb

6’4 3/8” vs 6’4 3/8”

277lbs vs 269lb

Wingspan 81 7/8” vs 79”

Arm Length 34 1/8” vs 34”

40: 4.58 vs 4.65

Vert: 38” vs 36”

Broad: 120” vs 121”

3-cone 7.26 vs 7.37

shuttle 4.29 vs 4.41

Bench 26 vs 24 

 

Gary has the slight edge in all areas including length, size, speed, explosion and agility. Chubb had 12 sacks his rookie year. 

Ive watched three full games of Gary’s college tape. He can rush with both speed and power. And I’ve seen him throw OTs on their backside because transferred speed into power. 

Right now, based on athletic upside and based on college game tape (not just the sack stat line), I believe Gary is going to be a 10 sack guy in the NFL. 

In his healthy sophomore year he was top 10 in pressures for the season. That’s consistent production. 

And if you watch the tape, he plays a violent and impactful game. 

The difference being that the technique and maturity of his game was the most impressive aspect of Chubb as a prospect. 

What game are you seeing the speed rush in?

Also where are you seeing that he was 10th in pressures as a sophomore?

[spilltray]

15 hours ago, Joe said:

I think our biggest concern about him was his shoulder, yeah? I remember thinking he could potentially by Gute's Bustin Harrell with that pick, but IIRC, the shoulder isn't an issue now?

Harrell busting out of the league had nothing to do with his shoulder.

[Golfman]

1 hour ago, spilltray said:

Harrell busting out of the league had nothing to do with his shoulder.

Didn't he hurt his back lifting weights after the shoulder was healed? 

[deathstar]

16 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

What is there to define? it's a common football term.

Your edge rusher lines up one step off the outside shoulder of the tackle. The center snaps the ball. Your edge rusher takes 3-4 hard steps straight upfield or at a slight angle towards the QB, like he's in a dead sprint. He's trying to get to a spot on the field with the depth  roughly equivalent to where the QB will settle at the end of his drop back. He's trying to beat the offensive tackle to that spot. The tackle will be backing up in his kick slide, so he'll be slower, but he has one fewer step to take and knows the count. 

When your edge rusher gets to that spot, he's going to "flatten out" aka make a sharp turn towards the QB. This is usually where point of contact happens with the OL. If your edge rusher is good at turning the corner, he'll be able to make a sharp turn that will put him on a path to the QB. If he's not good at it for any number of reasons, he's going to end up not getting there. If he can't make the turn at speed, he's going to end up not being able to make a sharp enough turn and be pushed past the QB. If he's not good at presenting a small target at the point of contact, the offensive lineman is going to push him past the pocket.  

Go to 2:29: 

Miller gets to the "corner" (or the intersection point of him and the offensive lineman) in a hurry, and bends around it. Note how he's almost 45 degrees to the ground. He even bends at the waist so that the area for the offensive lineman to hit with his hands is tiny. He does that without losing any real momentum.

 

 

Ok, so we see how the best edge rusher in the game utilizes it. It’s a great platonic ideal of “bending the corner”. Now I’m curious: how does a player’s ability to do this actually impact how successful he is over the course of a season/career? Before you, or anyone answers, I agree: hypothetically it does nothing but help. But what I’m curious about are actual numbers: who does this well, how often did they do that, and how did it affect their/the team’s performance?

These are big questions that involve a lot of work to answer. In the absence of that work a lot of people will say that the best edge rushers do this a lot and it’s their most valuable ability. My opinion, though, is that it is not the most valuable skill and overvalued by the majority of people discussing pass rushing. To me it seems like arm strength for quarterbacks: it’s useful and every great QB has it but there’s a hell of a lot more to being a QB. 

[Hands]

Questions about Gary will be answered soon enough. The guy is huge and fast. Chubb was a very good comparison, but our opinions aside, Gary will be playing in one of the waves of pass rushers that Pettine will use against offenses. I envision a very strong defense this year with Gary being one of the reasons that teams will feel pressure in the trenches.