1[12]: Rashan Gary [EDGE; Michigan]

[HighCalebR]

2 minutes ago, PossibleCabbage said:

So here's a thing I don't understand about the Gary skepticism.  Jim Harbaugh went on the record, more than once, that Gary was their best player.  He clearly wasn't trying to push Gary up the draft board, because saying that doesn't help out Devon Bush (who was already drafted higher) at all.  He clearly did not pick a "more productive" player on his defense to crown with "best player", since he had options for that.  So who is more likely to know whether Rashan Gary was a key component for Michigan having a great defense (the Ohio State game notwithstanding), Jim Harbaugh or PFF?

Like if Gary was actually lazy, or didn't develop, or was hard to coach, or whatever Harbaugh (who is not a man known to mince words) wouldn't have said he was their best player.

I mean, if you just watch him play you should be pretty convinced he's more than his stats. 

You're right though, having Harbaugh come out and have his back like that can't be a bad thing.

[PossibleCabbage]

Say what you want about Harbaugh, but there is basically no chance he will accidentally mistake a bad player for his "best player." 

[cannondale]

Let's not get carried away. Still a guy that didn't produce at the college level and now has to do it against the best in the world. Guys who dominate in college often struggle. Measureables are not a guarantee. Just ask the Mike Mamulas of the world. As Bill Parcells once said, "Until you do it - you can't do it."

Why couldn't Harbaugh, a former NFL coach, get production out of him if he was his best player ? Winovich produced with far less, 20 feet away

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by cannondale

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, the simple answer is that not everything a defender is asked to do shows up on the stat sheet.  Nose tackles don't accumulate stats, corners people don't throw at because their guy is covered don't accumulate stats, etc.  It's possible for a guy to do everything he's asked to do, and do it well, and not have that appear anywhere in the box score.  I've seen Gary take over games- even if he doesn't reliably tackle the quarterback, he's still preventing the offense from functioning.

I don't care if he's a double digit sack guy even once in his career.  I care if he makes it difficult to offense.

Edited April 28, 2019 by PossibleCabbage

[MrBobGray]

1 hour ago, cannondale said:

Let's not get carried away. Still a guy that didn't produce at the college level and now has to do it against the best in the world. Guys who dominate in college often struggle. Measureables are not a guarantee. Just ask the Mike Mamulas of the world. As Bill Parcells once said, "Until you do it - you can't do it."

Why couldn't Harbaugh, a former NFL coach, get production out of him if he was his best player ? Winovich produced with far less, 20 feet away

 

 

I mean yes, yes that's the difference between a SDE and a WDE in that system.  Gary was aligned on the strong side of the formation every play; by design, he had to take on the double team down in and down out.  Winovich's job was to attack from the weak side, to penetrate through and chase plays down.  That's going to be the sexier job and come with the statistics to match.

Gary has a lot of work to do, let's not get it twisted.  But even at his current level of development if he was playing Winovich's role he would be seen in a very different light.

[nickel]

Was not my pick at 12.  Would have taken Wilkins and been perfectly happy with all the intangibles and what not that come with that type of pick.

 

A little surprising that we aren't talking a bit more about the writing on the wall.  They want to build a defense, not just draft players, and whether or not Gute and Pettine know what they are doing, it's clear there is synergy and a plan with the personnel decisions.

 

Was all aboard the safe, known pick (Wilkins).  That would have been my pick.  But I get this and I'm ok with it especially looking at the macro of Gute's moves.  Very deep, very young, very talented D.  Guessing we all think Pettine is the real deal? 

 

Was the right off-season and the right draft slot to take a Gary.  We are still ok if he busts and if he hits...

[deathstar]

Here’s what I know- Gary is an upgrade over Fackrell.

[nickel]

Honestly one of the big reasons to appreciate the pick.  

 

He's not even replacing him.  He's a DL/DE freak and for better or worse you gotta take those dudes early.  

 

Fackrell is what he is.  I know you were joking but that's the type of roster spot you should never concern yourself with.

 

So many factors getting overlooked.  Daniels is up after this year.  Lowry/Adams/Lancaster are down and distance match ups.  Needed high end talent at 12.   

[JaireAlex]

19 minutes ago, deathstar said:

Here’s what I know- Gary is an upgrade over Fackrell.

Bingo

I see a very solid floor for Gary. The lazy label is simply bs. He's not a "boom-bust" which often comes because of work ethic as well as size. Gary has the size, the athleticism, the tape that shows he really can play. He may not be a star but he'll be a very solid player. Good floor and the sky is the limit. A perfect fit for Pettine. An easy pick.

[cannondale]

7 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

I mean yes, yes that's the difference between a SDE and a WDE in that system.  Gary was aligned on the strong side of the formation every play; by design, he had to take on the double team down in and down out.  Winovich's job was to attack from the weak side, to penetrate through and chase plays down.  That's going to be the sexier job and come with the statistics to match.

Gary has a lot of work to do, let's not get it twisted.  But even at his current level of development if he was playing Winovich's role he would be seen in a very different light.

Except when the offenses went with no tight end - like the video I posted showed plenty of. Not a single double team either. Not gonna argue it - the video is proof. Don't know why people keep saying the same things when it's not true. I'm not saying that he wasn't double teamed at all - or that he didn't face strong sides, but it's frustrating that I keep seeing the same things being said as if he was up against the world every play. He wasn't. And great players tend to beat double teams every once in a while as well. I'm done talking about it until training camp

Edited April 28, 2019 by cannondale

[St Vince]

13 minutes ago, cannondale said:

Except when the offenses went with no tight end - like the video I posted showed plenty of. Not a single double team either. Not gonna argue it - the video is proof. Don't know why people keep saying the same things when it's not true. I'm not saying that he wasn't double teamed at all - or that he didn't face strong sides, but it's frustrating that I keep seeing the same things being said as if he was up against the world every play. He wasn't. And great players tend to beat double teams every once in a while as well. I'm done talking about it until training camp

You have to admit Gary faced way superior talent on the OL than Oliver. Big 10 guards and tackles are legit pro prospects. If we have gotten Oliver this forum would be buzzing about the next Aaron Donald, Warren Sapp. But Gary gets the Harrell, Perry  label.

[cannondale]

19 minutes ago, St Vince said:

You have to admit Gary faced way superior talent on the OL than Oliver. Big 10 guards and tackles are legit pro prospects. If we have gotten Oliver this forum would be buzzing about the next Aaron Donald, Warren Sapp. But Gary gets the Harrell, Perry  label.

Guys have been getting sacks in the Big 10 for 100 years now. Something doesn't add up. It's as simple as that. It's not complicated. That's why everyone is calling it a boom or bust pick. He could be a Pro Bowler or not get a second contract in Green Bay. Neither would surprise me. Was it worth #12 to find out ? I don't know. Obviously Gute thinks so.

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by cannondale

[OneTwoSixFive]

One thing that is certainly in Gary's favour is that Gute was 'switched onto him' in February. If they were thinking Gary was special and a good #12 pick back then, they have have had plenty of time since to gather/hear any negative whisper/rumour, they've had time to re-examine the tape, time to double check on how the dyslexia could affect his learning, basically time to re-evaluate everything (and you can bet that they went over him being the pick A LOT).

They were still high on him on draft day. This is no late riser - so proper attention only given late, this means they had time for a slow, thorough, evaluation. If the scouting staff know their stuff, there should be few secrets with Gary.

Another aspect of dyslexia is that people with this disability are often creative in other ways, there isn't really any connection between dyslexia and intelligence. As long as the Green Bay coaches can find ways to make it as easy as possible for Rashan to learn, it need not have much impact.

Remember, the scouts/GM took him despite the labrum damage, despite, the dyslexia, despite the suggestion of lack of production. To me, that suggests a lot of homework was done, a lot of tape watched and discussed. If the Scouting staff are completely wrong on this guy, I'll have reservations about their evaluation skills, going forward.

Edited April 28, 2019 by OneTwoSixFive

[cannondale]

2 minutes ago, OneTwoSixFive said:

One thing that is certainly in Gary's favour is that Gute was 'switched onto him' in February. If they were thinking Gary was special and a good #12 pick back then, they have have had plenty of time since to gather/hear any negative whisper/rumour, they've had time to re-examine the tape, time to double check on how the dyslexia could affect his learning, basically time to re-evaluate everything (and you can bet that they went over him being the pick A LOT).

They were still high on him on draft day. This is no late riser - so proper attention only given late, this means they had time for a slow, thorough, evaluation. If the scouting staff know their stuff, there should be few secrets with Gary.

Another aspect of dyslexia is that people with this disability are often creative in other ways, there isn't really any connection between dyslexia and intelligence. As long as the Green Bay coaches can find ways to make it as easy as possible for Rashan to learn, it need not have much impact.

I saw an interview where someone suggested that someone with dyslexia could almost have paralysis by analysis (or not being able to analyze) as the game went on. It makes sense to a degree. Who knows

[OneTwoSixFive]

2 minutes ago, cannondale said:

I saw an interview where someone suggested that someone with dyslexia could almost have paralysis by analysis (or not being able to analyze) as the game went on. It makes sense to a degree. Who knows

That might be the case with carrying out a sequence of directions, but on the whole this is a Moday to Saturday issue, not a Sunday one.