1[12]: Rashan Gary [EDGE; Michigan]

[CWood21]

17 minutes ago, TransientTexan said:

All the ppl that are strawmanning by insinuation the people that are disappointed with the production thus far were people that were expecting Gary to “show out” in y1. Or insinuating that those people are “giving up” on the guy.

Just look at the snaps.  IF we make the assumption that Za'Darius Smith and Preston Smith are playing all the snaps at OLB and that we always had at least 2 OLBs ont he field, there was only 125 snaps to be had.  Kyler Fackrell had 124 snaps and given he's an OLB-type only, it's safe to say that he's lining up as an OLB.  Rashan Gary has 94 snaps, which means that he was one of the LBs in 94 snaps with either Za'Darius Smith on the DL or Kyler Fackrell on the bench.

[ReadyToThump]

6 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

That's kinda my point.  There's no blueprint as to what is going to predict future success.  The notion that somehow his lack of production this year is somehow an indictment on him is head scratching.  Rashan Gary is averaging 16 snaps per game.  Clelin Ferrell is averaging 44 snaps per game and he's got 1 sack to account for.  Josh Allen has 5 sacks while averaging 41 snaps.  Brian Burns has 4.5 sacks while averaging 41 snaps.  Montez Sweat has 1.5 sack and averaging 40 snaps.  LJ Collier has 0 sacks and he's averaging 10 snaps per game.  If you don't think opportunity determines production, I don't know what to tell you.

So are you saying Gary would be producing if he had more snaps? Or whats your point?

Because to me he looks like he's lost when rushing the passer. He doesn't look the part, perhaps that's *partially* why he's getting so few snaps... because he's super raw and not a good NFL edge rusher atm. (I say this in a cautiously optimistic manner).

Edited October 22, 2019 by ReadyToThump

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, ReadyToThump said:

So are you saying Gary would be producing if he had more snaps? Or whats your point?

Because to me he looks like he's lost when rushing the passer. He doesn't look the part, perhaps that's  why he's getting so few snaps... because he's super raw and not a good NFL edge rusher atm. (I say this in a cautiously optimistic manner).

All I'm saying is that he's not even playing even close to a significant enough amount of snaps to draw any kind of conclusions.  The kid is averaging less snaps per game than any non-LJ Collier pass rusher by almost 2.5x as many snaps as the next guy.  So either Rashan Gary sucks or he's behind a pair of pretty damn good pass rushers?  I wonder which one it could be.

[Victor1124]

44 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Why would he improve between college and his very first NFL games? 

ummm an entire off-season and preseason with professional coaching. Nobody is saying he needed to be completely transformed but there isn't a single difference.

[Victor1124]

6 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

All I'm saying is that he's not even playing even close to a significant enough amount of snaps to draw any kind of conclusions.  The kid is averaging less snaps per game than any non-LJ Collier pass rusher by almost 2.5x as many snaps as the next guy.  So either Rashan Gary sucks or he's behind a pair of pretty damn good pass rushers?  I wonder which one it could be.

It could easily be both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. 

[ReadyToThump]

Just now, CWood21 said:

All I'm saying is that he's not even playing even close to a significant enough amount of snaps to draw any kind of conclusions.  The kid is averaging less snaps per game than any non-LJ Collier pass rusher by almost 2.5x as many snaps as the next guy.  So either Rashan Gary sucks or he's behind a pair of pretty damn good pass rushers?  I wonder which one it could be.

I think its a combination of both. He sucks(right now) + behind the Smith's. 

You can't tell me you watched him rush the passer and come away saying he looks good doing it, it's been ugly. He has often:

1) looked slow off the snap

2) looked stiff

3) overran the pocket

4) shows no initial move other than a blind bull rush

5) no counter moves

All cons you can consistently find in his draft reports and college tape. Now am I saying he's doomed for his career and will never improve? Hell no. Am I gonna say I was happy and think it was a good pick at #12? Hell no. 

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, Victor1124 said:

It could easily be both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. 

Preston Smith and Za'Darius Smith are currently T-4th and T-8th in sacks, and Kyler Fackrell is coming off a 10.5 sack season.  The morale of the story, sacks are a miserable way to judge players.

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, ReadyToThump said:

I think its a combination of both. He sucks(right now) + behind the Smith's. 

You can't tell me you watched him rush the passer and come away saying he looks good doing it, it's been ugly. He has often:

1) looked slow off the snap

2) looked stiff

3) overran the pocket

4) shows no initial move other than a blind bull rush

5) no counter moves

All cons you can consistently find in his draft reports and college tape. Now am I saying he's doomed for his career and will never improve? Hell no. Am I gonna say I was happy and think it was a good pick at #12? Hell no. 

First off, you don't throw the Combine he did and he call him stiff.  Bradley Chubb posted a near identical Combine performance, and NOBODY would dare call him stiff.  You see what you want you want to see.  Secondly, we know what his flaws were coming out of Michigan, and some of you are acting like this is something new being thrown in front of you.

[Victor1124]

1 minute ago, CWood21 said:

Preston Smith and Za'Darius Smith are currently T-4th and T-8th in sacks, and Kyler Fackrell is coming off a 10.5 sack season.  The morale of the story, sacks are a miserable way to judge players.

I actually agree with that but besides a lack of production, he doesn't look good at all when he is on the field. 

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, Victor1124 said:

I actually agree with that but besides a lack of production, he doesn't look good at all when he is on the field. 

I mean, how easy is to get any sort of rhythm when you're averaging 16 snaps per game?

[Victor1124]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

First off, you don't throw the Combine he did and he call him stiff.  Bradley Chubb posted a near identical Combine performance, and NOBODY would dare call him stiff.  You see what you want you want to see.  Secondly, we know what his flaws were coming out of Michigan, and some of you are acting like this is something new being thrown in front of you.

Bradley Chubb looks like a way more fluid athelete in my opinion.

I don't think anyone is thinking these are new things, there are a good amount of people who didn't like Gary coming out and didn't want to draft him, myself included. So far, his play has just reassured people like myself of those concerns. This is also a thread about Rashan Gary, I find it strange that nobody is allowed to comment on the current status of his play without being a "hater" or having some kind of "agenda". 

Some people are discussing evidence that has actually occurred and some people are talking about an imagination they have of what Gary will become.

[thrILL!]

1 hour ago, Victor1124 said:

I don't think anyone is thinking these are new things, there are a good amount of people who didn't like Gary coming out and didn't want to draft him, myself included. So far, his play has just reassured people like myself of those concerns. This is also a thread about Rashan Gary, I find it strange that nobody is allowed to comment on the current status of his play without being a "hater" or having some kind of "agenda". 

Some people are discussing evidence that has actually occurred and some people are talking about an imagination they have of what Gary will become.

I'm not sure how him not playing up to higher expectations is reassuring but you're as entitled to your opinion as any other fan is.  Personally, I think Gary playing well would be more reassuring than being right about draft takes that he wouldn't be..

[AlexGreen#20]

4 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Yes.  You can look through NFL history.  It's littered with guys who had more snaps who did less with more snaps than Gary.  Let me guess, you were ready to write off Nick Collins after his first few years?  Davante Adams?  I can keep going.

Collins and Adams played like crap their rookie year too. The difference is they were picked in the 50s and not 12th.

 

[AlexGreen#20]

4 hours ago, Nick_gb said:

That's fair to an extent. I personally took the no expectations approach with Gary when we drafted him. However, some of those things that you just can't teach, Gary has. He's just an athletic freak that's extremely raw. Just gotta trust the coaching staff to get the most out of him and coach him up.

Does Gary's freakishness align with being a successful NFL edge rusher?

[AlexGreen#20]

4 hours ago, HighCalebR said:

I think there's pretty clear growth from game 1 until now. I'd have to say he was quite a bit further behind than I hoped to start with but I think Mike Smith is doing a fairly good job with him. I think his production arc is much more Frank Clark than it is Julius Peppers unfortunately.

In what way?