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Pick is in, #27 Jonathan Abram S Mississippi State.

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1 minute ago, roi34 said:

Josh Allen DE/Olb is proof pff is too stat based and not eye tested. Watch his games he rarely uses a swim move or power bull rush move. Just runs around the LT mostly. Won't be that way in nfl

This 100000%. How do people think this translates to a 4-3 DE? I’ve been saying this all off season, so has BP and others. He’ll be a good 3-4 OLB, possibly good 4-3 under hybrid DE where they stand a lot, but in your basic 4-3 scheme he’s average at best. 

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2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

The conversation they are having is accurate. Do you agree with your PFF boys that Mullen was the 160th best player in the draft? 

I don't care about their player rankings, grades, etc. The only thing that I refer to is their stats. 

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16 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

This 100000%. How do people think this translates to a 4-3 DE? I’ve been saying this all off season, so has BP and others. He’ll be a good 3-4 OLB, possibly good 4-3 under hybrid DE where they stand a lot, but in your basic 4-3 scheme he’s average at best. 

I always thought of Josh Allen as pure linebacker... he should be a good linebacker but as a number 1 edge rusher, he would struggle.. Kinda like Anthony Barr, I wanted Ed Oliver or Devin White to be honest but I'm supporting Ferrell 

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1 hour ago, Humble_Beast said:

I always thought of Josh Allen as pure linebacker... he should be a good linebacker but as a number 1 edge rusher, he would struggle.. Kinda like Anthony Barr, I wanted Ed Oliver or Devin White to be honest but I'm supporting Ferrell 

You wanted Ed Oliver? You said White was the best player in the draft. smh

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A couple things from this.

 

1. I watched Samuel Gold's video on Josh allen and his reliance on speed/rip moves in particular. He's still a projection as a player. He has a decent frame, but he has to grow into it more. His coverage ability is excellent, but that's not where his value will/should be in the NFL.

2. This is an Abram thread so I'll get into Abram:

Against Bama, I saw him:

1. Blow up a screen (beat the blocker) and make the tackle all by himself.

2. Stay with Jeudy in man coverage to force an incompletion. Can't tell you how impressive that is.

Consistently, I saw him toss blockers in the run game (including Hockenson) and show the ability to shed blocks in the run game/as a blitzer. 

Very impressed with him overall. I can see how he can make a big impact in terms of cleaning up everything in the short to intermediate range. Less shoddy angles and tackling. Less letting RB's and tight ends leak out for big gains.

Plus as a bonus, his favorite drafted RB was Jacobs and his favorite end was Ferrell (in this Lefkoe interview prior to the draft).

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3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

A couple things from this.

 

1. I watched Samuel Gold's video on Josh allen and his reliance on speed/rip moves in particular. He's still a projection as a player. He has a decent frame, but he has to grow into it more. His coverage ability is excellent, but that's not where his value will/should be in the NFL.

2. This is an Abram thread so I'll get into Abram:

Against Bama, I saw him:

1. Blow up a screen (beat the blocker) and make the tackle all by himself.

2. Stay with Jeudy in man coverage to force an incompletion. Can't tell you how impressive that is.

Consistently, I saw him toss blockers in the run game (including Hockenson) and show the ability to shed blocks in the run game/as a blitzer. 

Very impressed with him overall. I can see how he can make a big impact in terms of cleaning up everything in the short to intermediate range. Less shoddy angles and tackling. Less letting RB's and tight ends leak out for big gains.

Plus as a bonus, his favorite drafted RB was Jacobs and his favorite end was Ferrell (in this Lefkoe interview prior to the draft).

Yeah he basically called our draft in that Lefkoe interview. Abram is shaping up to be my favorite pick from this draft. Once he hits his stride and gets this defense down I think we’ll be surprised at the overall impact he’ll have even when he’s not the one blowing the play up. 

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On 4/30/2019 at 6:57 PM, NYRaider said:

I don't care about their player rankings, grades, etc. The only thing that I refer to is their stats. 

Their stats are their rankings. Their stats/grades didn't have Mullens in the top 15 CBs, which is absurd. 

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On 4/30/2019 at 6:45 PM, roi34 said:

Josh Allen DE/Olb is proof pff is too stat based and not eye tested. Watch his games he rarely uses a swim move or power bull rush move. Just runs around the LT mostly. Won't be that way in nfl

Exactly. It's a simple +/- system they outsource. The majority of Allen's sacks he was untouched getting to the QB. I think Allen will underwhelm as a pass rusher, but excel in coverage. 

I saw an analyst post during the process that Allen is the type guy some team will force at DE and a team like New England will eventually pick him up and get him in the right spot and he'll excel. 

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4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Their stats are their rankings. Their stats/grades didn't have Mullens in the top 15 CBs, which is absurd. 

That's where I see some disconnect and why I don't put much stock into their rankings. As you said they didn't even have Mullens as a top 15 CB despite the fact that their statistics say he allowed 0 TD's and one of the lowest passer ratings in coverage in the country. I just like to look at their advanced stats, especially for defensive players. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/30/2019 at 6:48 PM, BayRaider said:

This 100000%. How do people think this translates to a 4-3 DE? I’ve been saying this all off season, so has BP and others. He’ll be a good 3-4 OLB, possibly good 4-3 under hybrid DE where they stand a lot, but in your basic 4-3 scheme he’s average at best. 

There's a lot less difference between a 3-4 outside linebacker and a 4-3 defensive end. First of all, they're both edge positions and typically will have similar responsibilities depending if their a strong side player or not. Today, the differences between a 3-4 and 4-3 have more to do with alignment than gap responsibility. Certain 4-3 schemes resemble a 3-4 (like odd fronts like 4-3 under) and certain 3-4 schemes resemble a 4-3 in assignment (like Wade Phillips' 3-4 1-gap).

Second, the differences between 3-4 and 4-3 are further diminished when you consider how often teams are in subpackage. Ultimately, every team in the NFL is a 4-man front and the differences manifest more in who plays that pivotal nickel position (either a safety body or a corner body).

Elite edge players should be able to plug in play in any system and be effective. If they can't, I'd surmise the problem is with the system and not the player. For instance, Mack played with his hand in the dirt and standing up frequently while he was in Oakland despite him being more a 3-4 outside linebacker profile. Conversely, Calais Campbell was used to playing head up on tackles with a defender on his outside shoulder, but he proved he can storm the edge with the best of them while in Jacksonville. Bradley Chubb was a down player at N.C. state but stood up in Denver and got 12 sacks as rookie.

But ultimately, teams should first identify an elite talent, and accommodate their system to fit. When Denver drafted Von Miller, they had a 4-3 coach in Dennis Allen. He accommodated their scheme to allow Miller to remain standup player for the better of the team. I view Josh Allen as an elite edge talent; he had all the traits I look for in an elite edge rusher: first step quickness, converts speed to power, strength (to hold up against the run), hands, agility (ability to peel off and widen the edge), and bend.

The distinction between 4-3 end and 3-4 outside linebacker is outmoded for most teams.

Edited by Rich7sena

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

There's a lot less difference between a 3-4 outside linebacker and a 4-3 defensive end. First of all, they're both edge positions and typically will have similar responsibilities depending if their a strong side player or not. Today, the differences between a 3-4 and 4-3 have more to do with alignment than gap responsibility. Certain 4-3 schemes resemble a 3-4 (like odd fronts like 4-3 under) and certain 3-4 schemes resemble a 4-3 in assignment (like Wade Phillips' 3-4 1-gap).

Second, the differences between 3-4 and 4-3 are further diminished when you consider how often teams are in subpackage. Ultimately, every team in the NFL is a 4-man front and the differences manifest more in who plays that pivotal nickel position (either a safety body or a corner body).

Elite edge players should be able to plug in play in any system and be effective. If they can't, I'd surmise the problem is with the system and not the player. For instance, Mack played with his hand in the dirt and standing up frequently while he was in Oakland despite him being more a 3-4 outside linebacker profile. Conversely, Calais Campbell was used to playing head up on tackles with a defender on his outside shoulder, but he proved he can storm the edge with the best of them while in Jacksonville. Bradley Chubb was a down player at N.C. state but stood up in Denver and got 12 sacks as rookie.

But ultimately, teams should first identify an elite talent, and accommodate their system to fit. When Denver drafted Von Miller, they had a 4-3 coach in Dennis Allen. He accommodated their scheme to allow Miller to remain standup player for the better of the team. I view Josh Allen as an elite edge talent; he had all the traits I look for in an elite edge rusher: first step quickness, converts speed to power, strength (to hold up against the run), hands, agility (ability to peel off and widen the edge), and bend.

The distinction between 4-3 end and 3-4 outside linebacker is outmoded for most teams.

Mack’s skillset can easily play 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE and you can see that from his college tape. 

For a 4-3 DE you need to set a more physical edge for run defense and be able to rush the passer with power moves. Neither of which Josh Allen is capable of doing. You are absolutely in the minority that Allen can play like a Top 10 pick in a 4-3 system and the differences between a 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB are huge. Like I said, a 4-3 DE needs to be much much more physical of a player while a 3-4 OLB can be more finesse. They can also focus on more pass rush moves that get around the edge without making much contact. This is exactly what Josh Allen is. As a 4-3 DE you are gonna have to get off your blocker and not just go around him with barely any contact. You attempt t sound very smart but I really feel you don’t understand scheme fits at all. 

Edited by BayRaider

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Abram is gonna be a fan favorite. Watching interviews of his and he has that confidence about him. Seems like a alpha and this defense needs a alpha to take over and be a leader. Very excited to see him play. 

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50% of all 1st Rounders are busts and if I had to pick one for us, Abram is the only player that kind of worries me. I think Ferrell, Jacobs, and Mullen are gonna be highly successful for us and extremely confident in them. 

I’m not saying Abram will do bad, there’s a solid chance he’ll do well. I’m just saying he’s the only one who gives me a slight concern. I hope he covers TEs and RBs extremely well... because the days of a “violent safety” in the NFL are long over. I expressed the same concern with Joseph, even though his tape is super exciting. Abram needs to learn how to wrap up tackle as well, his aggressive tackling style in the NFL is not gonna work. 

Sorry guys, I just feel someone has to at least show a bit of concern for this pick. He could be excellent, but he’s also by far the riskiest out of our Top Four Prospects. 

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33 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

50% of all 1st Rounders are busts and if I had to pick one for us, Abram is the only player that kind of worries me. I think Ferrell, Jacobs, and Mullen are gonna be highly successful for us and extremely confident in them. 

I’m not saying Abram will do bad, there’s a solid chance he’ll do well. I’m just saying he’s the only one who gives me a slight concern. I hope he covers TEs and RBs extremely well... because the days of a “violent safety” in the NFL are long over. I expressed the same concern with Joseph, even though his tape is super exciting. Abram needs to learn how to wrap up tackle as well, his aggressive tackling style in the NFL is not gonna work. 

Sorry guys, I just feel someone has to at least show a bit of concern for this pick. He could be excellent, but he’s also by far the riskiest out of our Top Four Prospects. 

I don't see him leading with his head when he tackles he hits hard while looking at his target.

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