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2019 NFL Draft Discussion

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As I rarely pay attention to the draft, mostly because it's all just a guessing game on all levels, I am again disappointed that the brass traded UP again, not once, but twice. When was the last time we traded down and stockpiled picks.

Think about it, we grabbed Gardner-Johnson in the 4th, and he was projected as a 1st-2nd rounder, and we waited until the 4th to get him. Could have traded down earlier (at some point) to trade down again later to get him earlier and come out ahead.

I think other teams have our MO at this point and just sit back and wait for a call from the Saints. "Hey, Ron! We're 12 spots in front of the Saints. Man the phones!!!"

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2 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

As I rarely pay attention to the draft, mostly because it's all just a guessing game on all levels, I am again disappointed that the brass traded UP again, not once, but twice. When was the last time we traded down and stockpiled picks.

Think about it, we grabbed Gardner-Johnson in the 4th, and he was projected as a 1st-2nd rounder, and we waited until the 4th to get him. Could have traded down earlier (at some point) to trade down again later to get him earlier and come out ahead.

I think other teams have our MO at this point and just sit back and wait for a call from the Saints. "Hey, Ron! We're 12 spots in front of the Saints. Man the phones!!!"

Never in the Payton era? At least I can't think of any drafts where the Saints have traded back under Loomis/Payton.

I would say, 90% of their drafts have had at least one TRADE UP, but never a trade back.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

As I rarely pay attention to the draft, mostly because it's all just a guessing game on all levels, I am again disappointed that the brass traded UP again, not once, but twice. When was the last time we traded down and stockpiled picks.

We allegedly landed 3 players in our top 70 even though our first pick in the draft wasn’t supposed to come until #62. You can’t do that while stockpiling picks unfortunately.

Quote

Think about it, we grabbed Gardner-Johnson in the 4th, and he was projected as a 1st-2nd rounder, and we waited until the 4th to get him. Could have traded down earlier (at some point) to trade down again later to get him earlier and come out ahead.

Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody, including the Saints, knows where a player is going to fall. Trading back from a 2nd in the hopes that a falling prospect continues to fall is a good way to miss out on that prospect IMO. 

Quote

I think other teams have our MO at this point and just sit back and wait for a call from the Saints. "Hey, Ron! We're 12 spots in front of the Saints. Man the phones!!!"

Maybe other teams know Payton wants to move up, I’ll concede that. 

But does it matter if they know?

If McCoy plugs in as a starter and CGJ sees playing time over PJ / replaces PRob next year, nobody will care that we didn’t use 2019 to stockpile picks and I don’t think anyone will care that our plan was predictable. 

 

The Saints claim they landed 3 guys in their top 70.... I’ll take that over a pile of camp bodies any day, but that’s just me.

Edited by Dome

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21 hours ago, SWATcha said:

Never in the Payton era? At least I can't think of any drafts where the Saints have traded back under Loomis/Payton.

I would say, 90% of their drafts have had at least one TRADE UP, but never a trade back.

The Payton/Loomis regime has traded UP 17 times including the two trades this draft. That's a bunch.

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15 hours ago, Dome said:

We allegedly landed 3 players in our top 70 even though our first pick in the draft wasn’t supposed to come until #62. You can’t do that while stockpiling picks unfortunately.

I appreciate that, and I agree that IF we look at this year ONLY, you're right. However, IF we'd have traded back (at some point(s)) don't you think that perhaps we'd have been in the position to stay put, or leverage less?

As it is, moving up those 12 spots this season has cost us our 2nd round pick of next season. That's HUGE!!! We're in that position in part due to trading UP in the last draft for Davenport (traded this draft's 1st round away).

Then again, we traded UP 14 spots in the 4th. 

It seems perpetual to me, at this point. And I agree, hindsight is 20/20, yet the trend is consistent. 

15 hours ago, Dome said:

Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody, including the Saints, knows where a player is going to fall. Trading back from a 2nd in the hopes that a falling prospect continues to fall is a good way to miss out on that prospect IMO. 

We both know the draft is a craps shoot. We hear "we landed our guy" and that doesn't fly with me. So, are we to think that we'd have traded out of the 1st to a high 2nd to land the same guy. Heck no!! There was someone else in that spot, and there would be another guy in the spot we traded out of in the event "our guy" was gone 12 picks later. 

The draft is truly hit & miss.

15 hours ago, Dome said:

The Saints claim they landed 3 guys in their top 70.... I’ll take that over a pile of camp bodies any day, but that’s just me.

It kind of makes me worry about our top 70, but I've been fairly impressed with our last 2 drafts under Ireland, so I'll sit back and try to be optimistic.

Per your "camp bodies" comment, I agree 100%

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9 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

I appreciate that, and I agree that IF we look at this year ONLY, you're right. However, IF we'd have traded back (at some point(s)) don't you think that perhaps we'd have been in the position to stay put, or leverage less?

As it is, moving up those 12 spots this season has cost us our 2nd round pick of next season. That's HUGE!!! We're in that position in part due to trading UP in the last draft for Davenport (traded this draft's 1st round away).

Then again, we traded UP 14 spots in the 4th. 

It seems perpetual to me, at this point. And I agree, hindsight is 20/20, yet the trend is consistent. 

We both know the draft is a craps shoot. We hear "we landed our guy" and that doesn't fly with me. So, are we to think that we'd have traded out of the 1st to a high 2nd to land the same guy. Heck no!! There was someone else in that spot, and there would be another guy in the spot we traded out of in the event "our guy" was gone 12 picks later. 

The draft is truly hit & miss.

It kind of makes me worry about our top 70, but I've been fairly impressed with our last 2 drafts under Ireland, so I'll sit back and try to be optimistic.

Per your "camp bodies" comment, I agree 100%

Considering the production that we got from Davenport while he was limited in snaps as well as due to injury, I'm more than happy with the trade from last year for Davenport, especially since we were going to be picking so late in the draft this year regardless and Okafor was a big question mark due to coming off an injury of his own.  I mean Davenport in 3 less games had .5 more sacks, 3 more QBHits, 1 more TFL, 2 more PD, and 1 more FF than Okafor.  Granted Davenport had less tackles, but Davenport played surprisingly well against the run last year considering he was supposed to be a raw player that was supposed to be more of a pass rush specialist than useful against the run.

Also we don't know if a 2nd next year is huge.  If the center ends up able to come in and play at a high level so have not only no drop off from Unger but maybe an improvement, it's more than worth it.  If we had our 1st round pick this year, who is to say it would've went to pick him anyways.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Raves said:

Considering the production that we got from Davenport while he was limited in snaps as well as due to injury, I'm more than happy with the trade from last year for Davenport

Agreed. Davenport pre-injury was better than advertised, he exceeded my expectations. If he continues with his development like we saw before from Week 1 until his injury, he's gonna be a very good player for a long time.

I hated the pick at the time, but have totally flipped a 180 on that.

55 minutes ago, Raves said:

Also we don't know if a 2nd next year is huge.  If the center ends up able to come in and play at a high level so have not only no drop off from Unger but maybe an improvement, it's more than worth it.  If we had our 1st round pick this year, who is to say it would've went to pick him anyways.

Also remember, we received a 4th round pick in the McCoy trade. We used that to trade up again and pick CGJ. If that's a player they saw as the 70th best player in the draft, they got him because they moved up for McCoy in the 2nd. This draft had a lot of talent fall, I thought Humphreys could go anywhere starting late 5th tbh. So I don't mind leveraging a little bit in next years draft to get some players we think can help us right now. The trade-ups were targeting players that have the chance and potential to play this year, so those are smart moves IMO. 

If we landed two potential starters or even a starter and an important role player (McCoy is likely to start Week 1 if everything goes as projected, CGJ has the potential to be a starting nickel, not likely to beat out PRob anytime soon though, but can see the field year one as a reserve at both safety spots as well as an extra slot/TE defender as a rookie IMO) then this draft is absolutely a win, doesn't really matter what happens with anyone after the 5th, that's always a crapshoot. Even more than the early rounds of the draft.

 

 

Totally unrelated... ya'll remember Stanley Jean-Baptiste? That man is still kicking around the NFL. He's on the Ravens now. Been on 6 different teams with not a single stat to show for it. I know he was a high ceiling low floor boom or bust prospect. But he's literally done nothing.

Also totally unrelated, Stanley Jean-Baptiste and Cooks are the two players I kept mocking to us in those spots that year. Neither worked out like I anticipated, though Cooks was a wash though, as his ability wasn't the issue. 

Edited by Dome

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12 hours ago, Raves said:

Considering the production that we got from Davenport while he was limited in snaps as well as due to injury, I'm more than happy with the trade from last year for Davenport, especially since we were going to be picking so late in the draft this year regardless and Okafor was a big question mark due to coming off an injury of his own.  I mean Davenport in 3 less games had .5 more sacks, 3 more QBHits, 1 more TFL, 2 more PD, and 1 more FF than Okafor.  Granted Davenport had less tackles, but Davenport played surprisingly well against the run last year considering he was supposed to be a raw player that was supposed to be more of a pass rush specialist than useful against the run.

Also we don't know if a 2nd next year is huge.  If the center ends up able to come in and play at a high level so have not only no drop off from Unger but maybe an improvement, it's more than worth it.  If we had our 1st round pick this year, who is to say it would've went to pick him anyways.

Okay, Davenport may be or may not be worth 2 1st round picks, time will tell. The speculation of this year's 2nd rounder (and next year's) is also a big maybe. 

So, how about the 15 trade ups?

All I'm saying, guys, is we continually trade up and end up with some good guys, yet have 1 Championship in the same period we've been trading up.
I can name another team who continually trades down, uses used players, and wins Championships left & right.

I kinda figured it was an obvious issue. Defend it however you'd like.

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37 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

Okay, Davenport may be or may not be worth 2 1st round picks, time will tell. The speculation of this year's 2nd rounder (and next year's) is also a big maybe. 

So, how about the 15 trade ups?

All I'm saying, guys, is we continually trade up and end up with some good guys, yet have 1 Championship in the same period we've been trading up.
I can name another team who continually trades down, uses used players, and wins Championships left & right.

I kinda figured it was an obvious issue. Defend it however you'd like.

Pretty sure at least one of, if not 2+ of Anzalone, Thomas, Bell, and Kamara were trade ups... how do you feel about those.  I think Armstead was a trade up as well.

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I honestly do understand the point of view and to a certain extent I agree with it, but the Patriots are such an anomaly it's really hard to copy what they do. Since B and B got together, they operated on simply another level than everyone else in the league. Belichick's ability to identify and develop talent, or find people who can, has been unmatched. The reason I bring this is up is because copying their format hasn't work for any team. And teams have tried!

 

I think the reality for the Saints is, we probably won't have a QB of Brees' talent for another generation at least. The front office knows that once he's gone, we're probably either going to replace him with an average starter (Teddy....sorry Teddy) or go full rebuild. It will take a while to amass a team like this is what I'm saying. So they are maximizing their window. Yes trading up costs assets and yes in the long run it hurts us, but in the long run we won't have a shot like this with a QB and team like this.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

Okay, Davenport may be or may not be worth 2 1st round picks, time will tell. The speculation of this year's 2nd rounder (and next year's) is also a big maybe. 

So, how about the 15 trade ups?

All I'm saying, guys, is we continually trade up and end up with some good guys, yet have 1 Championship in the same period we've been trading up.
I can name another team who continually trades down, uses used players, and wins Championships left & right.

I kinda figured it was an obvious issue. Defend it however you'd like.

When were one of the youngest most talented teams in the league, it’s not an issue IMO

Not sure what more you want from your team on draft day, we’ve competed for the title the last 2 years and IMO we got better this offseason. Improvement is all I ask for and based on projections, we’re doing just that.

 Comparing any team to how the Patriots do things, and you’re gonna be disappointed 

@Mid IowaWhat moves did you specifically not like and who would you have targeted instead?

Edited by Dome

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I’m fine with trading up as long as we hit on the player. Cooks, Kamara, and Armstead were trade ups and huge parts of our team. They have less of an eye for defensive talent, so it makes me a little bit more nervous on that side of the ball. But where would this team be without Kamara?

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Talk about an amazing draft!  Sure McCoy is solid and so is Gardner-Johnson, he was a steal in the 4th round but the UDFA signings and tryout players they brought in. Talk about hitting a home run!

 

Sure Granderson has league issues that might make him worthless, and Gustin has the drug stuff but that kid can play if he can clean the performance enhancing drug issue.  Chase Hansen is a star OLB and former safety, big time hit man and worlds of potential at OLB.  Kaufusi is a mountain at DE, loved him and his upside, is a force out there and a shock he was not drafted.  Butler has ability as a big WR, same with Humphrey who can get some big time YAC even though he is not a burner.  Ozigbo is a powerful big back and Williams and Bigelow bring ability as well.  They easily got some of the best if not the best UDFA in the NFL this go around.  Great job!

 

UDFA
Porter Gustin
Chase Hansen
Corbin Kaufusi
Emmanuel Butler
Lil' Jordan Humphrey
Carl Granderson
Divine Ozigbo
Shy Tuttle
Darrell Williams
Kenny Bigelow

 

Grimsely I thought could be drafted, smart safety who has good size and range, could see him making the roster, and I love Ouellette, tough runner who could play some HB also, versatile player and might be tried at FB and could bring something to the run game as well.  

Tryout Players
Robbie Grimsley
AJ Ouellette
Ed Paris
Cole Tracy
Kyle Kempt
 

A lot of good players I thought would be drafted they picked up, amazing job after the draft no question about it.  

 

 

 

 

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On 4/30/2019 at 10:26 PM, Raves said:

Pretty sure at least one of, if not 2+ of Anzalone, Thomas, Bell, and Kamara were trade ups... how do you feel about those.  I think Armstead was a trade up as well.

I feel GREAT about them. They also could have been achieved with a trade down, that's all I'm saying. I haven't said we lost out on people, I'm just pointing out the trend of always trading up, rather than down, ever. Unless they're the #1 pick, there's room to trade down to get your man.

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On 5/1/2019 at 9:28 AM, Dome said:

When were one of the youngest most talented teams in the league, it’s not an issue IMO

Not sure what more you want from your team on draft day, we’ve competed for the title the last 2 years and IMO we got better this offseason. Improvement is all I ask for and based on projections, we’re doing just that.

 Comparing any team to how the Patriots do things, and you’re gonna be disappointed 

@Mid IowaWhat moves did you specifically not like and who would you have targeted instead?

See response above.
I think you guys feel that I'm disappointed with our picks. I'm not. I'm disappointed in the trend of trading up, always.

I feel better about our team than I have in a long time, AND, I feel it could have been better with an additional 2-5 picks, rather than leveraging 2-5 picks.
I guess I'm just conservative. I don't like debt, and leveraging draft picks is debt. Pushing the cap to the limit, I love! If you've got it, and there's a limit, spend it and get great! But spending more than you should on a finite source like a draft pick, that just stinks.

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