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2019 NFL Draft Discussion

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On 5/1/2019 at 9:28 AM, Dome said:

 Comparing any team to how the Patriots do things, and you’re gonna be disappointed 

Why is it so absurd to want the absolute best? Why shouldn't anyone strive to be doing things the way the Patriots do it? We've both been lucky enough to have HOF QB's, and in that same time frame they've got 7 SuperBowl appearances to our 1. 

Insanity = doing the same thing expecting different results.

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59 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

I feel GREAT about them. They also could have been achieved with a trade down, that's all I'm saying.

I feel like this is a slippery slope, guessing what could have happened. 

I could find you dozens of trade-downs that landed the team a whole lot of nothing. It happens all the time. I can show you trade ups that landed all-stars. 

Taking a stance on trading up while still saying you're happy with the players seems contradictory. 

1 hour ago, Mid Iowa said:

I haven't said we lost out on people, I'm just pointing out the trend of always trading up, rather than down, ever. Unless they're the #1 pick, there's room to trade down to get your man.

This simply isn't true. Can you explain what you mean?

Players don't all have the same value, some are more valuable than others. Sometimes you can't get "your man" without trading up or at the very least staying put. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mid Iowa said:

Why is it so absurd to want the absolute best? Why shouldn't anyone strive to be doing things the way the Patriots do it? We've both been lucky enough to have HOF QB's, and in that same time frame they've got 7 SuperBowl appearances to our 1. 

Insanity = doing the same thing expecting different results.

I never said it was absurd to want the absolute best, I said you're going to be disappointed if you compare the way the Saints do things to the way the Patriots do things. Those are two very different statements.

Trading down isn't what won the Patriots those Super Bowls. It's a part of it, but there's a lot of things that make  it work, pointing to the Patriots trading down and then pointing to their Lombardi case is too much of an oversimplification for me to want to unpack right now. But yes, trading down and being the best in the league at finding a role where a player can succeed in your system has greatly helped the Patriots. 

I still think you're looking at this with 20/20 hindsight. You don't know how far a player is going to fall, if you trade back for "your guy" and then someone else snags him, you've done mucked up the whole thing. I can show you plenty of times trading down has completely and utterly failed, just in the last handful of drafts. If we're talking about things we could've done, we could've traded back and landed some absolute stinkers. 

Edited by Dome

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9 hours ago, Dome said:

This simply isn't true. Can you explain what you mean?

Yup!
If you hold the #1 pick, you don't actually have to use it, right? So, let's just say we did hold that pick and decided we didn't want the #1 player, rather stockpile for other positions. Well, let's look at the most recent example.

The 2016 draft, the Rams traded for the No. 1 pick, plus a fourth- and sixth- round pick from the Titans who received the 15th overall pick in the first round and the Rams' two second-round picks and a third-round pick. Tennessee also received the Rams' first- and third-round picks in the 2017 draft. The following year, the Titans used that Rams pick to trade UP in the draft to get their man. They leveraged wisely.

So, Rams get their QB and 2 picks - and Give up 6 picks, including their following year's 1st round pick. So, a net loss of 3 total picks, yet the placement of those picks is huge.
Rams 

Now, the Rams were smart during the rest of the draft and did some trading back to gain additional picks. The Saints rarely do that. The Titans used their bounty to trade up, which was a wash, basically. The Saints rarely do that.

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Sammy mentioned Kamara. We traded UP to get him in the 3rd, yet that was a leveraged pick.

Here's the deal, our 2017 draft was our best...probably ever.
Several of our picks were spots we acquired via the Cooks trade to New England. We actually won that chess match, and I'd love to see that more!!!

Follow the 2016-2017 model, it worked!! And just like the run (LOL), when it's working, we abandon it.

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you said unless you’re picking 1, you can always trade back and get your guy. That’s what I was referring to being untrue. I don’t think you refuted that at all.

 

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15 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

I feel GREAT about them. They also could have been achieved with a trade down, that's all I'm saying. I haven't said we lost out on people, I'm just pointing out the trend of always trading up, rather than down, ever. Unless they're the #1 pick, there's room to trade down to get your man.

There is not always room to trade back and get your guy.  As others have mentioned, even if we think he's a 2nd rounder, someone else might have him as a 1st rounder so even if we just traded to later in the 1st, someone might've drafted him before you.  If your guy is there and you feel his value is greater than the pick you'd be using to draft him, or the picks need to move up to draft him at that spot, then you draft him, plain and simple.  The Chiefs knew that when they traded up and drafted Mahomes right in front of us.

3 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

Yup!
If you hold the #1 pick, you don't actually have to use it, right? So, let's just say we did hold that pick and decided we didn't want the #1 player, rather stockpile for other positions. Well, let's look at the most recent example.

The 2016 draft, the Rams traded for the No. 1 pick, plus a fourth- and sixth- round pick from the Titans who received the 15th overall pick in the first round and the Rams' two second-round picks and a third-round pick. Tennessee also received the Rams' first- and third-round picks in the 2017 draft. The following year, the Titans used that Rams pick to trade UP in the draft to get their man. They leveraged wisely.

So, Rams get their QB and 2 picks - and Give up 6 picks, including their following year's 1st round pick. So, a net loss of 3 total picks, yet the placement of those picks is huge.
Rams 

Now, the Rams were smart during the rest of the draft and did some trading back to gain additional picks. The Saints rarely do that. The Titans used their bounty to trade up, which was a wash, basically. The Saints rarely do that.

And where are both of those teams right now?  The Rams are one of the best teams in the NFL and the Titans still suck.  So much for trading back and acquiring all those assets that the Titans did...

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19 hours ago, Raves said:

There is not always room to trade back and get your guy.  As others have mentioned, even if we think he's a 2nd rounder, someone else might have him as a 1st rounder so even if we just traded to later in the 1st, someone might've drafted him before you.  If your guy is there and you feel his value is greater than the pick you'd be using to draft him, or the picks need to move up to draft him at that spot, then you draft him, plain and simple.  The Chiefs knew that when they traded up and drafted Mahomes right in front of us.

How many "ifs" were just used?
I think we have a disconnect here. You're taking this as me saying it doesn't work. That's not at all what I'm saying, or you're simply reading a small portion of what I'm saying. 

19 hours ago, Raves said:

And where are both of those teams right now?  The Rams are one of the best teams in the NFL and the Titans still suck.  So much for trading back and acquiring all those assets that the Titans did...

Ah, so by your calculations, it has everything to do with where you pick, and not who you pick, or your scouting department, coaching staff, GM etc... 
Pretty poor argument here, Raves. You're better than this one.

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1 hour ago, Mid Iowa said:

How many "ifs" were just used?
I think we have a disconnect here. You're taking this as me saying it doesn't work. That's not at all what I'm saying, or you're simply reading a small portion of what I'm saying. 

Ah, so by your calculations, it has everything to do with where you pick, and not who you pick, or your scouting department, coaching staff, GM etc... 
Pretty poor argument here, Raves. You're better than this one.

No it's definitely who you pick.  The Saints have felt strongly enough about players that we should trade up to get our guy, or stay put to get our guys rather than trading back and hoping to get someone we like.  I think that the Saints FO have the mentality that they would rather have their guys that they have rated higher rather than trading back and getting a bunch of guys that they had rated lower, or even trade up for their higher rated guy than the lower rated guy.

I mean would you rather have the player you have rated #17 on your board or the player rated #62 and #107?  Not sure if dude was rated that high, just making a point.  I would rather have the higher rated talent, than multiple lesser talents.

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1 hour ago, Raves said:

I would rather have the higher rated talent, than multiple lesser talents.

In his post draft press conference Loomis emphasized they wanted quality over quantity and believes we got just that. 

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On 5/5/2019 at 10:51 AM, Raves said:

I mean would you rather have the player you have rated #17 on your board or the player rated #62 and #107?  Not sure if dude was rated that high, just making a point.  I would rather have the higher rated talent, than multiple lesser talents.

I still think you're not grasping what I saying, and you're basing my comments on this draft, maybe? 

So if we don't use #17, we move all the way to #62? What about #18, 19 etc...? There a lot of value there. 

The draft is all about "maybe". If #62, 63, and 64 are all hell bent on a tackle, and we're not, trade down to #63 and get some additional picks.

BTW, me moved UP in the draft to get the same guy that's cost us the final play in Minnesota. And frankly, he's been a standard contributor.

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All I'm gonna say is that since Ireland came into town. We have probably has 3 drafts where we would rank in the top 10? 2 for sure and 1 where we won it.  This year we still did pretty good. Before that, Vacarro was probably our best pick in 4 years (you get my point with this, don't knit pick).

If he wants to trade up/down or even forfeit a pick, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

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On 5/11/2019 at 5:33 PM, Counselor said:

CGJ already looking like a steal

I heard he was looking impressive early. I don’t put too much stock into it yet, but there’s no denying at face value he was a “steal” as far as draft day takes go 

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