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5[150]: Kinsley Keke [DL; Texas A&M]

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So I regret my wording on Lowry a little bit, because I think it gave people a false impression.  I was very high on him after his rookie season, but I don't feel that he's improved by as much as others seem to.  Thus, I still think he's an effective and useful player, just disappointing because he went from a solid rotational guy to a great rotational guy.  I felt then and do even more now that he has the talent to be a plus starter, and he's just not.  However, after all the responses, I figured maybe I missed something and went back to the coaches film on a few games in 2018 to see if I was badly mis-remembering what Lowry is.  I have to be honest, I really don't feel like I was. 

He's quicker than I remember, I will admit that's the first thing that jumps out.  The problem is I don't feel he gets near the value from it he should.  He can run the play down the line pretty well, but when it comes at him he gets more or less nothing from it.  Lowry really struggles to shed blockers, in part because he's a 6'6" guy with 31" arms.  He's great at getting his hands into the OL, but then the OL immediately gets their hands into him and you don't see much in the way of hand-fighting from him. I didn't see him clear the OL's hands on a single play, no swims, no real leverage play. He ended 3 straight plays as the DL furthest from the ball, and got absolutely washed out by double teams on several occasions.  Yeah, sometimes the scheme fires him like a bullet at the right gap and if you put him against an OL with a weak anchor he be a real bully, but there were consistent stretches of unacceptably ineffectual play.

His only pass rush move was a bull rush and he doesn't do much with it other than walk the OL back. No follow up moves of note, no bull into rip/swim/club anything, just a straight walk back.  Most of his pressures were other players chasing the QB into him.  In fact, of the three sacks of his I've seen on film recently, they were all dead rushes where the QB was flushed into him.  Admittedly, he's good on stunts or when the scheme can cause uncertainty, because he gets into the backfield in a big damn hurry if you don't get hands on him immediately, but for a 3rd year guy with the combination of talent and experience he has, you'd expect more from him.

Most players have film like that though, games where it's a bad match-up or you're battling something, or you just straight didn't have a good game, so I'm open to seeing more.  Does anyone have a good Lowry film they can recommend me so I can see what I seem to be missing?  I went through Miami and LA in 2018.  I might jump back to 2017/2016 next to see if I'm remembering that version of him right at all.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Victor1124 said:

Agreed, I see him playing on most of the obvious run downs and don't think he is worthless at rushing the passer . I know it is blasphemy to mention moving Clark off of NT but if Lancaster gets better, we lose Daniels next year, and depending on what get in free agency/draft; I wouldn't be shocked seeing Lancaster at NT, Clark at 3T, and hopefully an early draft pick at 5T(unless Lowry balls out or Adams/Keke show they can start.)

If Lancaster takes big 2nd and 3rd year jumps, Clark definitely has it in him to play 3t or 5t for the next 5 years. He’d be damn good at it, actually. And we’d be so hard to run on with those two. 

I would call some of that a probability more than a possibility if Lancaster really turns it on. 

Lowry is gonna be a solid player. I think Lancaster is the next best bet. Keke is a coin flip and Adams is a so-so player with a chance to be decent.

Edited by boratt

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7 hours ago, boratt said:

If Lancaster takes big 2nd and 3rd year jumps, Clark definitely has it in him to play 3t or 5t for the next 5 years. He’d be damn good at it, actually. And we’d be so hard to run on with those two. 

I would call some of that a probability more than a possibility if Lancaster really turns it on. 

Lowry is gonna be a solid player. I think Lancaster is the next best bet. Keke is a coin flip and Adams is a so-so player with a chance to be decent.

Lancaster is never going to have the pass rush that will make it reasonable to take Clark off the nose.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Lancaster is never going to have the pass rush that will make it reasonable to take Clark off the nose.

They would take Clark off the nose sometimes if Lancaster is the next best lineman after Clark and Lowry. Not all of the time but they would do it some of the time. I’d bet on it. First Lancaster has to get better tho. 

We have never had a decent nose other than Clark. That’s the only reason he’s been stuck in one spot.

Edited by boratt

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Posted (edited)

Double post

Edited by boratt

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Posted (edited)

If Lancaster develops so well, he becomes our second best lineman, and only could play nose, Clark would have himself a new position. And he’d dominate at 0, 3 or 5 so it wouldn’t matter. 

After 30 Clark will be a strict nose. While he’s young, he can do anything.

Edited by boratt

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1 hour ago, boratt said:

If Lancaster develops so well, he becomes our second best lineman, and only could play nose, Clark would have himself a new position. And he’d dominate at 0, 3 or 5 so it wouldn’t matter. 

After 30 Clark will be a strict nose. While he’s young, he can do anything.

Generating pass rush from the nose is much more valuable, and rare, than from the 3T. Lancaster hasn’t shown that he can do that, so there’s no reason to put him in there on passing downs.

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2 hours ago, boratt said:

They would take Clark off the nose sometimes if Lancaster is the next best lineman after Clark and Lowry. Not all of the time but they would do it some of the time. I’d bet on it. First Lancaster has to get better tho. 

We have never had a decent nose other than Clark. That’s the only reason he’s been stuck in one spot.

Clark has been stuck in one spot because there are very few things more valuable to a defense than a nose that can generate a pass rush. 3Tech pressure is relatively easy. Nose isn't.

You're seeing teams playing 2 3Techs now, not 2 NTs

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Lancaster can rush a little because he's strong as an ox, has active hands and a motor that doesn't quit.  You'll always be able to apply a little pressure with those tools.  Thing is Clark has all that and he's quick as a cat.  Clark/Lancaster might be impossible to run on, but you give up a lot of interior pressure.  That being said, if no other DL makes a jump and Daniels quits to live in the mountains of Nepal and if Lancaster does take the year 2 leap that's a pairing you can make work against run heavy teams.  You're not really optimizing the rush, but Lancaster/Clark should shrink the pocket pretty effectively and that plays well with two guys who can do that outside as well.  There's a lot of ball skills on in the secondary, and it wouldn't be the worst thing ever to just play pocket destroyers on early downs.  All of those conditionals seem unlikely though.

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32 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

Lancaster can rush a little because he's strong as an ox, has active hands and a motor that doesn't quit.  You'll always be able to apply a little pressure with those tools.  Thing is Clark has all that and he's quick as a cat.  Clark/Lancaster might be impossible to run on, but you give up a lot of interior pressure.  That being said, if no other DL makes a jump and Daniels quits to live in the mountains of Nepal and if Lancaster does take the year 2 leap that's a pairing you can make work against run heavy teams.  You're not really optimizing the rush, but Lancaster/Clark should shrink the pocket pretty effectively and that plays well with two guys who can do that outside as well.  There's a lot of ball skills on in the secondary, and it wouldn't be the worst thing ever to just play pocket destroyers on early downs.  All of those conditionals seem unlikely though.

I agree that those conditionals don’t seem likely. What we will probably see to start the year is Clark and Smith on the line, Smith and Gary on the edges for obvious passing downs.

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I hope Lancaster develops. I’m pretty sure I know how they’d handle it and I’ll be excited to bring this back up. I feel so sure of how to maximize the talent in that situation and slightly annoyed that not everyone can see it.

but if Lancaster doesn’t develop, it’s moot and everyone goes on thinking they had it figured out all along.

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1 hour ago, boratt said:

I hope Lancaster develops. I’m pretty sure I know how they’d handle it and I’ll be excited to bring this back up. I feel so sure of how to maximize the talent in that situation and slightly annoyed that not everyone can see it.

but if Lancaster doesn’t develop, it’s moot and everyone goes on thinking they had it figured out all along.

Maybe we're not understanding? 

3rd and 10 on the opponent's 40 yard line, they've got 11 personnel out; what should our DL look like?

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9 minutes ago, deathstar said:

what should our DL look like?

crazed animals that haven't been fed for a week

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, deathstar said:

Maybe we're not understanding? 

3rd and 10 on the opponent's 40 yard line, they've got 11 personnel out; what should our DL look like?

That has nothing to do with the specific scenario of Lancaster becoming a quality NT.

In the case that Lancaster develops to the point where they want him on the field, he’s going to be on the field as a NT and Clark will move. I’m fairly certain of this. People assuming the reason Clark plays nose is because it’s more important is just not true to me. It’s because they don’t have anyone else to play nose. Daniels, Lowry and Wilkerson just don’t play nose well. That’s why Clark was always there. If the personel change, so will Clark’s position. 

But lancaster might not develop at all. So he might not see the field much. In that case, Clark is still the only nose we’ve got.

im just in stark disagreement on how you’re seeing the situation.

Edited by boratt

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9 minutes ago, boratt said:

That has nothing to do with the specific scenario of Lancaster becoming a quality NT.

In the case that Lancaster develops to the point where they want him on the field, he’s going to be on the field as a NT and Clark will move. I’m fairly certain of this. People assuming the reason Clark plays nose is because it’s more important is just not true to me. It’s because they don’t have anyone else to play nose. Daniels, Lowry and Wilkerson just don’t play nose well. That’s why Clark was always there. If the personel change, so will Clark’s position. 

But lancaster might not develop at all. So he might not see the field much. In that case, Clark is still the only nose we’ve got.

im just in stark disagreement on how you’re seeing the situation.

I understand that.

I have no doubt that Lancaster can play the nose. But can he play the nose and provide pass rush on the 60% of plays that will be passes? 

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