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5[150]: Kinsley Keke [DL; Texas A&M]

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56 minutes ago, boratt said:

That has nothing to do with the specific scenario of Lancaster becoming a quality NT.

In the case that Lancaster develops to the point where they want him on the field, he’s going to be on the field as a NT and Clark will move. I’m fairly certain of this. People assuming the reason Clark plays nose is because it’s more important is just not true to me. It’s because they don’t have anyone else to play nose. Daniels, Lowry and Wilkerson just don’t play nose well. That’s why Clark was always there. If the personel change, so will Clark’s position. 

But lancaster might not develop at all. So he might not see the field much. In that case, Clark is still the only nose we’ve got.

im just in stark disagreement on how you’re seeing the situation.

Clark plays NT because then you get a rush from both spots on passing downs.  Unless you see Lancaster being a plus rusher from the nose, Clark will always see a fair amount of snaps there.  It's possible you do see that from Lancaster, and that'll be where the divide is between you and most other people.  To be honest I think there's actually something to be said for that idea.  Lancaster put up some really underrated numbers at his pro-day (4.98s 40 YD, 7.46 3-Cone, and 113" Broad, 36 bench reps) and at 6'3, 315 lbs that's no joke.  He's good with his leverage and he doesn't stay blocked.  I'm not nearly as high on him as you are, but it wouldn't shock me if he was our 3rd best lineman this year behind Clark/Daniels.  

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From The Athletic

Interchangeable parts

"A core tenet of the Mike Pettine defensive philosophy says that players with multi-position versatility are more valuable than players without it. Someone who can line up in two or three or four different spots during the course of a game affords the coaching staff maximum flexibility in an attempt to confound opposing offenses. The more diverse the game plan, the better — for the most part. For Pettine, one of the areas where positional versatility is a prerequisite rather than an added bonus is along the defensive line. The players who will earn the most playing time on Sundays are the ones who can shift seamlessly from nose tackle to 3-technique and 5-technique

On Tuesday, during the team’s first public practice of the spring, Clark worked mostly as a defensive end in the base 3-4 defense while former third-round pick Montravius Adams lined up at nose tackle. Dean Lowry served as the second defensive end as veteran Mike Daniels was held out of practice with an injury.

The shift from nose tackle to defensive end serves as a reminder that Clark is one of the most talented players on that side of the ball, an individual capable of influencing both run plays and pass plays. At his best, Clark is a sideline-to-sideline menace in the run game and a developing threat in pursuit of quarterbacks. It’s only natural for Pettine to utilize Clark across the formation "

 

It was just an OTA thing, but it seems reasonable that they'll look into moving guys around this year. Both Pettine and DL coach Monty are keen on keeping the BIGS fresh through rotation and keeping the QB guessing by changing things up.  Wilkerson in his prime could play all 3 and that's part of what Pettine liked about the guy in NY

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

Clark plays NT because then you get a rush from both spots on passing downs.  Unless you see Lancaster being a plus rusher from the nose, Clark will always see a fair amount of snaps there.  It's possible you do see that from Lancaster, and that'll be where the divide is between you and most other people.  To be honest I think there's actually something to be said for that idea.  Lancaster put up some really underrated numbers at his pro-day (4.98s 40 YD, 7.46 3-Cone, and 113" Broad, 36 bench reps) and at 6'3, 315 lbs that's no joke.  He's good with his leverage and he doesn't stay blocked.  I'm not nearly as high on him as you are, but it wouldn't shock me if he was our 3rd best lineman this year behind Clark/Daniels.  

Yeah. That’s what I’m saying. If he becomes our 3rd best lineman and gets his pass rush up to Lowry level, then he could play maybe 50% of the defensive snaps at nose.

In this scenario, Clark would take the other 50% and then play 15-20% somewhere else. 

 

If this is Daniels last year, and Lancaster is our second best lineman, I could see him playing 60% of the nose snaps, Clark the other 40 and then moving around a little more.

there are a lot of variables. It’s hard to pin down because so much is yet to be known.

And I know Clark will play quite a bit of nose, but Lancaster showed some ability last year and might start to push his way on the field soon by being better than Lowry, and I see Lancaster’s snaps coming strictly at nose.

Im not arguing that Clark isn’t our best nose. Not even close. I’m saying Lancaster might take snaps from Lowry and Adams but Clark is more versatile so would take a few snaps across the line. And it might be fun to watch Clark across from the Jason Spriggs of the league! 

Edited by boratt

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Those Pro day numbers are about equal to what Clark did at the combine. Lancaster is a little taller, little longer arms, same weight.

lancaster has slightly better 40 and broad jump

Clark has slightly better vertical

but Lancaster is a comparable athlete. Clark was 20 years old tho, so i would think he got more athletic as he developed. 

Still Lancaster has upside. Maybe not quite as much as Clark, but he has upside and showed promise.

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from pfffft:

  Tyler Lancaster led all interior defenders over the last six weeks of the season with 17 stops against the run.

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Posted (edited)

Well after all this Lancaster discussion, I decided to check out the tape on him just for my own amusement, and picked the second Chicago game since he had 6 tackles, 5 of which were solo.  Also let it be known that over the last 5 weeks of the season the man had a ridiculous 16 solo tackles playing the nose.  That's legit for any nose tackle, much less an UDFA rookie.  To put it in perspective, the very best five game stretch of Clark's career he had 18 solo tackles.  Lancaster already flashes big time ability to extend and shed, which is not an easy thing anywhere on the line but especially in the middle where no ref will ever call holding on a run play unless you're being tackled.  

Having said that, I have to say that the film was somewhat less kind to him as a rusher  His workout numbers may be good but he doesn't quite play up to them.  He's also pretty slow to react, although as a rookie I'll give him a pass there.  His bull rush is no joke, and he has the ability to put people on skates; he'll get his hands in you and his feet never stop, no matter how many people are blocking him.  But unless he makes a big jump in his quick twitch play, I just don't see much of a pass rusher there.  He does flash a nice pull and slip counter off his bullrush from time to time though, and there are definitely far worse pass rushers at NT in the NFL.  Just don't see a ton of upside at the moment.

On side notes, I ended up kinda watching Lowry again because boy did he jump off the screen in this game.  When you let Lowry penetrate or run to the sideline he really can be a problem, but even when they ran at him he was winning his 1 on 1's consistently.  There's just a lot more pop in his game; he was playing on the other side of the LoS even when he wasn't shooting gaps.  Also he flashed a nice swim move when the guard/tackle (can't remember) put his head down on a run block.  I'd have to go back and watch more games than I have time for to have a real opinion, but I do have to admit that I was selling the man short.

Unfortunately, the same is also true of Josh Jones, and not in a good way.  His play at S was solid fundamentally; he reacted when he should, he stayed at the proper depth even when there was some tricky route combos, and he made some tackles.  But he was also dogging it more often than not.  On several plays the ball carrier ended up gaining 3-5 more yards because Jones assumed his teammate had the tackle and let way up.  You're never responsible for someone else's mistakes, but if Jones was playing full speed he could have erased them.  He's got far too much physical talent to be jogging around like he does.\

EDIT: Actually I take it back about Jones.  His play at S wasn't good either.  

EDIT 2: I guess this is just my rolling thoughts about the rest of the team in this game now.  Jones has now been benched for giving up a 1st down, a TD, and a few easy catches.  He's not even close to where he needs to be, he's consistently out of position.  Just a really ugly performance for him in the first half. 

EDIT 3: On back to back plays we have a terrible play that Rodgers can't make something of, and a great play that he botches.  Feels like 2018 in a nutshell.

On the first play of the 2nd quarter (2nd and 10), a truly ugly play design leaves him with no where to go with the ball, but he's able to escape, buy time, and eventually throw it away.  He doesn't do anything special on this play, but I call it out because it was a badly designed play of the type people were sure were the offenses downfall last year.  Broken clock is right twice a day I guess.  I will say that Kendricks also gets called out here for his lack of awareness.  He's just running a shallow crosser, but he doesn't look back for the ball until he's already in Roquan Smith's zone.  He's gotta recognize the zone coverage and look to Rodgers; there's no point trying to sell someone with your route when you're running all alone in the middle of the field.  There's no one to fool Lance just look for the damn ball.  Special kudos to my boy Jamaal with a great read on the pass block to cross the formation and pick up McManis coming on a blitz.  

But then with 14:53 left in the 2nd on 3rd and 10, we get another of Rodgers really mystifying decisions.  The Bears are in Cover-1, with Amos deep and Jackson playing over the top of Adams.  EQ smokes Amukamara down the left sideline, but for reasons only Aaron will ever know, he holds the ball and eats a sack.  Make no mistake, the deep shot is wide open; there's no pressure on Rodgers at all as EQ is even with Amukamara and Jackson is running the wrong way.  Rodgers has to, HAS TO, throw this ball.  You know you have a 9 route with EQ against a guy with Prince's footspeed and no safety help on 3rd and 10 from the damn 39 yard line and you don't throw it?  Why?  Why on earth would you ever not?  There's just no way to explain this.  

This wouldn't be the worst thing ever, but to compound matters, Jimmy puts just a delightful move on Roquan Smith and has a few steps coming across the middle.  Rodgers doesn't throw to him either.  Smith is so much faster than Jimmy at this point in his career I'm not sure he gets the first, but 4th and 1 from the 30 is a pretty damn great outcome from a 3rd and 10 honestly.  If he's not throwing the deep shot, and he's not, then Jimmy is the only place to go with the ball.  I just have no idea why he holds it here.

EDIT 4: This game is kinda making me hate Kendricks.  OK hate is way too strong a word; let's go with, I also would not have retained him if this tape was my only evidence either way.  His blocking is pedestrian at best, mostly due to his effort; he's clearly a guy just going through the motions with the playoffs gone, but I don't care what the reason is this is just bad stuff.  On a PA rollout play that had a real chance to pick up a big chunk with Cobb, he gently escorts Floyd into the backfield before showing almost no athleticism in his leak-out route to the flat.  Amos sees it the whole way and easily shuts it down for no gain.  Side note: I've been way more impressed with Amos than Jackson this game.  Jackson has bit badly on stuff a few times now, and been lucky to get away with it.  He also wanted no part of Williams in the open field on a screen and gave him the HHCD shove as he ran past.  This isn't calling out Jackson who's a stud, but this probably wasn't his favorite game to sit through.

Edited by MrBobGray

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Posted (edited)

Continuing this down here because why not.  I'm running low on energy so this may be the last update, try to hold back the tears.

EDIT 5: This is also not a good game for Aaron Jones.  I assume he left due to injury as he's been MIA for awhile and the box score only shows 4 carries for him, but before he left he ran either the wrong route or a very poor route on several plays, and had a bad read in the run game that probably cost him 10-15 yards.  However we've seen far better from him very consistently so you just shrug and move on.  J. Williams played a hell of a game in relief, or I'm just such a huge Jamaal stan I can't tell.  Probably both.

Edited by MrBobGray

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Posted (edited)

MrBobGray,

Im going to hold off judgement on his pass rush until this season. Clark’s was bad too as a rookie. Even tho Lancaster is older than Clark, it was still his first year in the NFL. 

Good to see the changed opinion of Lowry. He’s a solid dude.

Lets hope Adams and Lancaster each improve. Whether we keep Daniels or not, he’s going to regress into his 30s. We need DL. 

Edited by boratt

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Next season Daniels will be 31. Maybe his price will be reasonable.

Clark is a must resign and his price will not be reasonable. If he extends now it will probably add 5 years, 100M. Because he has two years left on his current deal that ends up coming to about 7 years 115 or 17M/season. Strangely enough, that is a good deal. It takes him through his 30th birthday. 

It would be hard to give Daniels another 10M. We might just have to get by with Clark, Lancaster and Lowry as our interior lineman. With pass rush juice coming from Gary and Z. I don’t know if we can afford Daniels. Plus he seems always injured the last two years. 

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Daniels play has dropped off the last few seasons. He is still good, but he is definitely on the decline. Maybe with new energy of defense and more plays off to rest, maybe he can regain the form. The fact that he looks very different than the rest of our DL, makes me think he will not be resigned. Personally, I'm in a wait and see mode to see how well he plays. 

 

I believe Lowry is about plateaued out. But he is an above average player who is reliable. Montravious is a player who started to come around late last season. He doesnt get a lot of love by Packer fans, but I expect him to be a good player for us this year.

 

As I pointed out to a Adams hater the other day, Packers cut Cullen Jenkins 2 years in a row. He finally made the roster in year 3, let alone becoming a force. It can take a few years for the big guys.

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49 minutes ago, VegasDan said:

I believe Lowry is about plateaued out. But he is an above average player who is reliable. Montravious is a player who started to come around late last season. He doesnt get a lot of love by Packer fans, but I expect him to be a good player for us this year.

 

As I pointed out to a Adams hater the other day, Packers cut Cullen Jenkins 2 years in a row. He finally made the roster in year 3, let alone becoming a force. It can take a few years for the big guys.

I agree on Lowry. Might be ever so slightly better this season but about plateaued. 

Honestly, Clark is probably close too. This year is probably the start of his true prime so whatever he looks like this year, that’s close to who he is.

Lancaster is a better athlete than Adams and played better than Adams. Upside and production wise, I have more hope for Lancaster than Adams.  But Adams could definitely turn it on. Coaches said he’s understanding how to be a pro now. I’m still hopeful. That is a position that sometimes takes a couple years 

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On 5/22/2019 at 2:50 PM, MrBobGray said:

So I regret my wording on Lowry a little bit, because I think it gave people a false impression.  I was very high on him after his rookie season, but I don't feel that he's improved by as much as others seem to.  Thus, I still think he's an effective and useful player, just disappointing because he went from a solid rotational guy to a great rotational guy.  I felt then and do even more now that he has the talent to be a plus starter, and he's just not.  However, after all the responses, I figured maybe I missed something and went back to the coaches film on a few games in 2018 to see if I was badly mis-remembering what Lowry is.  I have to be honest, I really don't feel like I was. 

I went through Miami and LA in 2018.  

Wow, I don't even know how this is possible? How can you review Miami 2018 and came to this conclusion?

FYI, Miami 2018 was the best game of his career. He played at pro Bowl level that game.

I also don't know how you can be high on him after his rookie season, when he hardly produced anything, yet question him after a productive 3rd season?!?

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Donzo said:

Wow, I don't even know how this is possible? How can you review Miami 2018 and came to this conclusion?

FYI, Miami 2018 was the best game of his career. He played at pro Bowl level that game.

I also don't know how you can be high on him after his rookie season, when he hardly produced anything, yet question him after a productive 3rd season?!?

 

 

I don't honestly know how you can believe that unless you're box score scouting. If you want to point to specific plays you feel will I missed please do, but I watched the coaches film again this morning and it was just as unexceptional as it was the first time. 

I'm not talking about production. I'm talking about how he plays down to down. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Donzo said:

Wow, I don't even know how this is possible? How can you review Miami 2018 and came to this conclusion?

FYI, Miami 2018 was the best game of his career. He played at pro Bowl level that game.

I also don't know how you can be high on him after his rookie season, when he hardly produced anything, yet question him after a productive 3rd season?!?

 

 

Agree or not but who you're replying to just posted a wall of text evaluating games. I would be very interested in seeing you evaluate Lowry's Miami tape.

Edited by deathstar

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9 hours ago, boratt said:

MrBobGray,

Im going to hold off judgement on his pass rush until this season. Clark’s was bad too as a rookie. Even tho Lancaster is older than Clark, it was still his first year in the NFL. 

Good to see the changed opinion of Lowry. He’s a solid dude.

Lets hope Adams and Lancaster each improve. Whether we keep Daniels or not, he’s going to regress into his 30s. We need DL. 

Yeah I mean that's totally fair.  The biggest difference is Clark badly needed that year of growth and body re-comp because he was so young; Lancaster already is pretty close to what he's going to play at so there's not a lot of potential to change there.  That being said:

My god do I love me some Lancaster.  He's just so fun to watch.  There's a great play in the Miami game where he just throws a guard into the hole Frank Gore is trying for, and it's hilarious.  Like, legitimately just shoves him a good four feet into the gap.  I don't even think it was his guy, he was just in the way.  It was the best, I watched it like six times and laughed every time.  The man is just a refrigerator made out of hate, and he has so little time for people's nonsense.  He's basically the player I hoped Mike Pennel would be for Green Bay.

Personally I don't like his chances at developing into much of a rusher, but I will certainly be holding out hope.  His biggest issue is his get-off; he's almost always the last one off the line at the snap on either side of the ball, and you don't see much in the way of burst from him.  I'm praying that as he adjusts to the speed of the game we'll see that respond in kind, because if he can get that fixed up the rest of his game actually will play in the pass game.  His bull rush is decent enough even with the guards having all day to set-up their anchor; if he can get his hands into them before they're ready a la Clark I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck he sacks a QB with their own OL at some point in his career.

The more of Lowry I watch the more I have to admit I was wrong (just finished the week 17 Lions game and Lowry had another good game).  Dude can flat out play, I honestly think it's Pettine letting him down a bit.  He's not an elite talent and he does have some big weak spots (I'd prefer to never watch him try to anchor against a double ever again), but good lord is he quick (especially for 6'6", 300 what the hell) and he plays with so much urgency.  They need to run approximately 9000% more stunts with him and Clark; I know you don't see much of the DT/DT stunt in the NFL but I promise you Clark and Lowry can make it work.  His pass rush infuriates me because it's literally only bull rushes, but I think that's what Pettine wants; crush the pocket and make the QB uncomfortable.  Thing is, Lowry's bull rush is OK but they need to get him moving upfield on the shoulder of the OL because it's a much stronger part of his game.  I'm pretty sure Lowry's gone after this year because this scheme just isn't doing him any favors; I understand that he's not the level of player you build your defense around, but at least let the man run every now and again.

Adams....boy.  I really want to be excited about him, but his film is....underwhelming.  I'm not sure I saw him get his hands into the OL and extend a single time in the Lions game.  My brain knows that can't be true, but it feels like it is.  He plays hard every snap, the knock on him about being lazy is patently untrue, but there's just so much work needed there.  He has really active hands but without any kind of real plan.  He just sort of throws them wildly, hoping some combination of chopping, ripping, and clubbing will move the OL, which it doesn't of course, especially because he doesn't sync his feet up with it at all, so it's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.  Sometimes he'll anchor the double team pretty well, sometimes he gets blown up.  Sometimes he'll read the play and discard his man, and then sometimes he'll be in the wrong gap entirely.  He's just really inconsistent and badly needs some serious polishing.  There's talent there; he reminds me a bit of Johnny Jolly but quicker (but not nearly as much of a bully); unfortunately, I'm afraid he'll run out of time before he can really get his game where it needs to be.  

There's things to like from all these guys, but I'm concerned about the DL depth going forward.  Of course, the fact that Gary/Smith will be playing on the interior on any obvious passing downs means it's less of an issue than it could be, but still.

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