The 2019 Minnesota Vikings Draft Class

[Krauser]

5 minutes ago, RpMc said:

The more Mattison I see, the more I like. He may lack a top end gear, but his burst gets him to his highest gear very quickly; he runs well behind his pads and it normally takes a host of tacklers to bring him down.  If Cook continues to have some durability issues, Mattison looks like a more than capable lead back in a zone scheme. It's going to be exciting to watch him vs Mike Boone is camp/pre-season.

Yeah he’s more of a RB1 than a short yardage back like Asiata.

Two of the Vikings top 3 picks this year reinforce positions that were supposed to have been settled at the 2017 draft, with Cook and Elflein. Injuries...

[RpMc]

3 minutes ago, TENINCH said:

Do you think Hunter will come to Speilman requesting a raise this year? Compared to players he's younger than and imo better than he's underpaid.

This is the first year of his new deal, so I don't see that being very likely.

[SemperFeist]

Interesting take/observation

[Ozzy]

30 minutes ago, TENINCH said:

Do you think Hunter will come to Speilman requesting a raise this year? Compared to players he's younger than and imo better than he's underpaid.

Exactly, and yeah he is underpaid and the Vikings cannot pay them all in terms of the good young players they have.  But say Griffen plays more like he did in 2017 they going to just let him walk and have Weatherly start?  Weatherly is ok as a backup not sure he has starter potential much less Pro bowl potential which is what Griffen had and had coming out of college despite being drafted low.  He was always an elite level player with his burst and power.  

And say Alexander and Waynes are gone next year, having Rhodes, Hughes and or Hill/Boyd I would not be totally fine with.  Hill and Boyd could be good backups, hopefully they could be starters but not sold on that, heck Alexander is barely a starter but at least has potential in the slot something Hill or Boyd cannot really play.  Or say Joseph leaves or gets cut, they have little to no real talent on the DT I am confident with down the road long term.  

 

1 hour ago, Cearbhall said:

On one hand, I agree with you that the cap situation isn't great.  Even the people that you are discussing this with agree to an extend in acknowledging that the Vikings will likely be picking between Waynes and Alexander. That is a reflection of the tight cap situation.

On the other hand, I don't think it is dire. In the end of the day, having more good players than you can pay is a lot better problem than not having enough good players. It is not a good thing to have to push cap into the future and it is unfortunate when the cap prevents the team from keeping all of the players that it likes. However, It is fairly easy to manipulate the cap charges from year to year.  

One thing the Vikings may consider is pushing up to $20M of cap charges into 2021 with plans on starting a QB that is on a rookie contract that year.  In fact, I would have considered drafting a QB in the first round this year had one been available at pick 18 that I liked enough with the thought being that the team could trade Cousins away after this year and be starting a QB on a rookie contract as early as next year if the draft pick this year was developing well. Now, there was no such QB available to the Vikings at pick 18 this year which is no surprise, but maybe they get their guy next year.

Starting a QB on a rookie contract saves a lot of cap space!

They passed on Drew Lock in the 1st clearly and could have traded up for him in the 2nd also.  Sure they cannot in all honesty do that this season because guaranteed contract QB Cousins of course, but doubt any team trades for him a year or two from now and pay him that amount.  Few teams in the NFL even need a QB honestly.  What Jaguars but in a few years, Tampa Bay maybe if Winston does not improve or Tennessee maybe but Mariota still has a chance.  A ton of young talented QBs all over the league and the demand might not be so great unless the greats retired but all seem to just keep playing and playing.  Guys like Rivers, Brees, Big Ben etc.  

Maybe some QBs fall next year just based on lack of need, guys like Jordan Love, Jacob Eason or Fromm.

 

Overall though the Vikings draft this year filled some needs and got some good players but the second half of the draft was pretty weak I think in terms of collecting depth and talent and the UDFA class is even worse.  

40 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Smith is very athletic in the sense that he’s smooth and flexible and well coordinated. His testing at the combine wasn’t amazing given that he weighs less that most of the other TE prospects (speed, agility and explosion scores are weight adjusted). Fant was the freak athlete (not that I wanted the Vikings to have any part of drafting him), while the guy I was targeting (Oliver) tested slightly better than Smith at a slightly better weight. 

The combine differences aren’t as important within a certain range as this kind of ability, which Smith has lots of:

He’s a night and day improvement from Rudolph in terms of his movement skills. 

I consider being great in space as part of being a great athlete, sure he did not run a 4.5 40 but did not run a slow 40 either.  I like Oliver as well and would love to have got him late and he would have been cheaper but Smith I am fine with no doubt.  Personally I would want a bigger TE though but if they play two TEs that works but who would be the second one, Conklin?  He cannot block and is not even that good of a threat unless he greatly improves. Morgan they might not be able to sign next year and who says they would even want to so they would have to fill in the other one with another draft pick because doubt they could sign anyone of not in free agency.  Smith could be good as a HB type and pass catching threat at TE but not sure he is a Pro Bowler either like Rudolph is.  

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, SemperFeist said:

Interesting take/observation

The Patriots do not over pay for anyone, so I doubt they sign Rudolph unless he takes a lot less to try and win a title.  They have Jacob Hollister who has some ability out of Wyoming, same with Ryan Izzo who is a good pass catching threat and Matt LaCosse who has the size they want as does Austin Seferian-Jenkins who could do very well in that system if motivated and I am sure he will be.  And they signed Andrew Beck out of Texas as a UDFA, one of the best blocking TEs in the draft I feel.  

Say it was a trade situation how much would they get for Rudolph, 2nd round pick next year or less?  Would love to see Rudolph in that system though, he could do extremely well with a QB willing and able to actually find the TE consistently.  Is he Gronk though, no freaking way, not as good as a blocker and not as dynamic after the catch either...

[vikings209]

13 hours ago, pacman5252 said:

I will say I’m don’t like the Smith Jr pick. At 6’2” he’s probably a h back in the nfl, which a second seems high for. 

You do realize that Shannon Sharpe was 6'2". He turned out to be a pretty good TE.  

Maybe Kubiak sees a little if him in Smith Jr. Maybe he wants to use him as more of a move TE instead of an inline.

[pacman5252]

9 minutes ago, vikings209 said:

You do realize that Shannon Sharpe was 6'2". He turned out to be a pretty good TE.  

Maybe Kubiak sees a little if him in Smith Jr. Maybe he wants to use him as more of a move TE instead of an inline.

2 things;

1. You can always find Sharpe, D Walker, and like Trey Burton are really the only examples of guys his size having success at his position. That doesn’t mean he won’t, as Smith offers some nice playmaking ability, but it is fair to acknowledge there is a limitation there. 

 

2. He pretty much has to be used as a pure move TE since he doesn’t really have a frame to put on size and play inline. I still see the squad needing another playable TE in 2020 after Rudolph leaves. 

[RpMc]

^^

You forgot his most direct size comparison... Jordan Reed was 6'2, 233 his draft year. He's also not going to be an in-line blocker in a man scheme. His smooth moving, strength, and leverage are going to allow him to be the edge guy on outside zone, perform backside wham blocks. Reliable is all we need with David Morgan as the impact blocker.

"

Yet, while his offensive production has Tide fans grinning and NFL scouts clamoring, Smith’s development as a reliable in-line blocker has allowed his playmaking to stand out even more.

“Not that he wasn’t good before, but you can tell he’s really established his hand-in-the-ground blocking (technique), which is going to help in the future,” Hentges said of Smith Jr. “Obviously, he’s been a really big deep-play threat since he first stepped on campus, but now he’s just making plays (all over). He’s realizing what potential he has and what ability he has, and I’m really excited to see where his game goes.”

Known more for his receiving prowess entering college, Smith has expanded his game while modeling himself after Howard in both work ethic and production.

That work ethic has been especially evident in the weight room, where Smith can now bench press 450 pounds, allowing the smaller tight end to better handle one-on-one blocking assignments against even the SEC’s best pass rushers."

https://www.dothaneagle.com/sports/alabama/improved-blocking-from-tight-end-irv-smith-jr-has-expanded/article_f6696108-e093-11e8-8e4c-3f90084fb455.html

 

[vike daddy]

could someone make a list of what schools we drafted from this year, please?

any anomalies or similarities to previous drafts? i don't remember the last time we took someone from Alabama, right?

[RpMc]

5 minutes ago, vike daddy said:

could someone make a list of what schools we drafted from this year, please?

any anomalies or similarities to previous drafts? i don't remember the last time we took someone from Alabama, right?

North Carolina State
Alabama
Boise State
Oklahoma
USC
Arkansas
Wyoming
Elon
Texas
Oregon
Colorado State
Air Force

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-We drafted Austin Shepherd from Alabama previously
-We've got a decent history of drafting small school lineman (Fusco, Gossett, Udoh)
-We've dipped into Oklahoma, USC, Arkansas, and Texas before
-Oregon might be a new one for us
-Cutting is our first military academy pick that I can remember; I can't remember drafting out of Colorado State or Boise State either
- even split between the SEC (Smith Jr/Watts), PAC12 (Smith,Mitchell), BIG12 (Samia, Boyd)
- heavy mountain west influence (Mattison, Epps, Johnson, Cutting)
- 1 ACC (Bradbury) and no BIG10 teams

[Dolmonite26]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

Exactly, and yeah he is underpaid and the Vikings cannot pay them all in terms of the good young players they have.  But say Griffen plays more like he did in 2017 they going to just let him walk and have Weatherly start?  Weatherly is ok as a backup not sure he has starter potential much less Pro bowl potential which is what Griffen had and had coming out of college despite being drafted low.  He was always an elite level player with his burst and power.  

And say Alexander and Waynes are gone next year, having Rhodes, Hughes and or Hill/Boyd I would not be totally fine with.  Hill and Boyd could be good backups, hopefully they could be starters but not sold on that, heck Alexander is barely a starter but at least has potential in the slot something Hill or Boyd cannot really play.  Or say Joseph leaves or gets cut, they have little to no real talent on the DT I am confident with down the road long term.

You're fabricating problems here.

Yeah sure Hunter could ask for money, but...he hasn't and it doesn't seem like a reasonable thing to project happening.

And yeah sure they could cut Joseph, but why? Again you're creating a problem that doesn't actually exist.

They are facing the same problem a lot of good teams face when they're in the middle of a championship window, which is paying young players.  The reason this problem exist? They're already paying good players they've developed.  See the theme here?

The team has a strong track record of devolving talent, so at a certain point you have to lean on that because not everyone can be paid, nor should that be the goal. The team is at a point where reloading and continued development needs to be their focus (as does finding a QB replacement after cousin but that a separate issue somewhat). Players emerge, players develop, answers that you weren't expecting can appear. The team has already set themselves up with several potential answers to future problems. I.e. Holton Hill and Mike Huges to replace Waynes and Mack; a host of young players on the DL who will have a chance to prove themselves; and so on.

If these players dont answer the bell that's ok, because these are 2020 and beyond problems, at lot can change by then, but giving players a chance to prove themselves is good idea because resources are finite.

Key players are the ones that you extent and keep on the team and they have already done a lot of that. If there are more players who fit that designation (Alexander), the money can be created and moved around as other posters have already demonstrated, you just dont want to accept the answer.

[Ozzy]

23 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said:

You're fabricating problems here.

Yeah sure Hunter could ask for money, but...he hasn't and it doesn't seem like a reasonable thing to project happening.

And yeah sure they could cut Joseph, but why? Again you're creating a problem that doesn't actually exist.

They are facing the same problem a lot of good teams face when they're in the middle of a championship window, which is paying young players.  The reason this problem exist? They're already paying good players they've developed.  See the theme here?

The team has a strong track record of devolving talent, so at a certain point you have to lean on that because not everyone can be paid, nor should that be the goal. The team is at a point where reloading and continued development needs to be their focus (as does finding a QB replacement after cousin but that a separate issue somewhat). Players emerge, players develop, answers that you weren't expecting can appear. The team has already set themselves up with several potential answers to future problems. I.e. Holton Hill and Mike Huges to replace Waynes and Mack; a host of young players on the DL who will have a chance to prove themselves; and so on.

If these players dont answer the bell that's ok, because these are 2020 and beyond problems, at lot can change by then, but giving players a chance to prove themselves is good idea because resources are finite.

Key players are the ones that you extent and keep on the team and they have already done a lot of that. If there are more players who fit that designation (Alexander), the money can be created and moved around as other posters have already demonstrated, you just dont want to accept the answer.

Maybe I am the only one but the Vikings with that cap situation, that is not exactly a good thing.  The Patriots who won the super bowl and have a top to bottom better roster than the Vikings have $66 million to play with next year, the Vikings have $1.  But no that is not an issue?  Why cut Joseph, because he is getting paid too much money for his production, hopefully that is not the case with Griffen or Joseph but last year neither one lit it up out there.

 

The Vikings have not drafted a Pro bowl player since 2015, and this most recently draft was some what weak at points especially late.  But no say everything is great and they had an amazing draft?  Sure if you want, I disagree and showed teams who did a better job collecting talent I feel.  If the Vikings drafted as good as people think none of this would be an issue but yeah they did not draft any DL help really which they need. Heck could argue the only great much less good DL they have picked was Hunter and that was a long time ago.  And having little to zero money for free agents is an issue.  So they better hit and hit big with the recent draft picks.  

 

In a ten year span they drafted a Pro bowl player 9 out of those 10 years and a few years had multiple pro bowl players in one draft.  The years of 2006 - 2015, since then nothing.  It is an issue, play with the cap games all you want but they better start getting more solid players in the draft.

 

 

[Ozzy]

52 minutes ago, vike daddy said:

could someone make a list of what schools we drafted from this year, please?

any anomalies or similarities to previous drafts? i don't remember the last time we took someone from Alabama, right?

Since 2012 Rick obviously does not go for small school guys often at all.  This is how many I count in eight years, most of his draft picks are bigger schools and a lot of the time very well known programs.  

 

Olisaemeka Udoh Elon
Austin Cutting Air Force
Jerick McKinnon Georgia Southern
Kendal James Maine
MyCole Pruitt Southern Illinois
Edmond Robinson Newberry College
Moritz Bohringer GFL
David Morgan UTEP
Colby Gossett App State

 

Udoh I hope he hits, has a lot of potential but he is a rare pick of a small school guy.  Sadly the only one on this list that was any good was McKinnon really.  Could argue Air Force and UTEP should not be on the list but put them on anyway.

 

[Dolmonite26]

No has said the cap situation is a non issue, just that it can be mitigated.... easily (to a degree).

Your opinion that Joseph is overpaid is a laughable one and using the pro bowl as a measuring stike is questionable but on its own is a fair point.

The teams last few drafts are an odd evaluation. They have struggled to find high impact, immediate contributors (pro bowlers), especially in the early rounds, but have done a commendable job of finding role players later on.

The early pics have either been more slow burn players who have taken time to develop (Waynes, Mack, possibly Johnson), have dealt with injuries (cook and Huges), or just weren't good (Treadwell).

Huges and O'niel are incompletes atm, but early looks are promising.

So while it's frustrating that the team hasn't produces immediate impact players with those high end assets and that has certainly contributed to the team underachieving the last few years, when looking at the roster in 2019 and beyond the development or potential development of these players leaves the team with a lot of young players who could have a lot to say about the team's Superbowl prospects for 2019 and 2020.

[RpMc]

You're making up numbers again. The $1.7M figure from the over the cap article you linked is with ALREADY having a 51 person roster; meaning that they have cap space enough to field a roster for next year.  Their ACTUAL cap room is over $7M; you brought up the potential of Griffen playing well - if he does, then his contract goes away. If he plays 57% of defensive snaps, or gets 6 sacks, the rest of his contract voids... boom $13M dollars in cap space found.  If he doesn't meet those numbers, he's going to be gone anyway, and, you guessed it, $13M in cap space found.

We have our full compliment of draft picks, and likely four compensatory picks (3,6,7,7) to help round out the roster depth as well. Is the tight cap going to cost us a player or two? Most likely, but that's also the price of "solid" drafting; you have to pay the players.  We were also likely going to lose one of Rhodes/Waynes/Alexander anyway; we sealed that when we drafted Mike Hughes.  We didn't have the money to keep Anthony Barr this year, but we did... while still going out to sign someone to potentially fill the hole at RG.

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They may have not drafted a pro bowl (who cares about the pro bowl anyway?) player since 2015, but they're brought in the "solid" players you've asked for.

2016 - Mackensie Alexnander, David Morgan, Stephen Weatherly, Jayron Kearse
2017 - Dalvin Cook, Pat Elflein, Jaleel Johnson, Ben Gedeon
2018 - Mike Hughes, Brian O'Neill (still too early to tell)

All of the above are "solid" players that play contributing roles on the team. Perhaps they've peaked and will not provide any more value than they currently do, but that remains to be seen.  You also can't have it both ways when saying we don't have money to re-sign the 2016 draft class and at the same time not call them solid players.  If they aren't solid, why are they going to cost us so much? Why are so worried about re-signing players that you don't think are good?

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Go ahead and continue to do what you do though, and ignore the fact that the Vikings have been one of the better teams in managing the cap since Spielman/Brz have been here. We've gotten creative (Poison Pill anyone?), rarely push a ton of dead money into the future like the Cowboys who were cashed strapped forever until having to start over, and have managed to basically keep ALL of our home grown players worth keeping and been proactive in spending on our stars BEFORE they hit it big.... but you're right, I'm sure that ability will drop off of a cliff next year.