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RpMc

The 2019 Minnesota Vikings Draft Class

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39 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I follow the draft, I am a Viking fan but I follow the draft first and for most and as many of the prospects as I can.  Clearly our opinions are a little different in what you look at after the draft, I do not assume everything the Vikings do is correct.  Others just want to look at the absolute positive side of things because they want some hope which is understandable.  

oh i don't assume what the Vikings always do is always correct either, far from it. i haven't met anyone who is perfect yet, including the mug i see in the mirror every day. so i don't expect football executives and coaches to be perfect either.

i didn't choose the username of vike daddy by chance. being a father and part of a family are very, very important to me, in all things. so i look at the Viking team year to year as a mythical extended family. lots of times you sit around with your real family and watch them make a decision that you know is wrong, or at least could have been a better one. but you learn, if you have the perspective i do, that you always can offer support to that family member, even if you see that what they should have done is obvious. it's about enjoying what's in front of you, as opposed to griping what could have been better.

football to me, and this is nothing but my own personal view and i don't expect or even need others to share it, is about entertainment. it's about having fun. and fun is where you make it to be.

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3 hours ago, RpMc said:

I guess we are arguing semantics. That’s what I would consider a “good” player to be - solid, to me, is that they serve a functional role on the team. All of the players I listed above would fall into that category for me. 

Well yeah I realized we had a different idea of what solid is and tried to bring that out in my reply to you. That was a main idea in my reply to you.  Thank you for clarifying further what "solid" means to you.  I hope you understand my interpretation of it after my previous reply. If not, let me know and I can try again.

3 hours ago, RpMc said:

I disagree on Elflein who was solid as a rookie and then had no warm up to the season while playing between two pylons at guard this year. It was a bad year, no doubt, but given the circumstances his struggle this year is understandable

Even with your clarified definition we are going to have to disagree on this one. Elflein was below average his rookie year and flat out terrible his second year. Overall, I can neither consider him to be "solid" nor "good". He has been hurting the team. I do agree that his injury can excuse his setback last year, but that doesn't change the fact that he was below average before the injury.

To be clear, I haven't put down all hope for Elflein; I just don't want to trust him with a starting job.  I think he is ideally suited to be a backup at this point with potential to earn a starting job down the line. Still, for a third round pick that is a bit of a disappointment going into the third year. I believe in the third round teams are looking for players that will be more than developmental backups after two years. But yeah, given the injury I can excuse the fact he hasn't progressed beyond that point yet.

I understand that you and others are willing to count on Elflein as a main competitor for a starting job this year at guard. That is fine. We just have a difference of opinion there. It is really as simple as that.  I hope that you are right. I would submit that the overly optimistic outlook on development of offensive lineman is part of the reason the offensive line hasn't been better.

Personally, I would rather have been optimistic that Eric Wilson would be a good starter than Elflein. Or even one of the DTs -- Holmes or Johnson. Given the cap squeeze the team was going to have to be optimistic somewhere. They chose a different position than I would have, but that doesn't mean that it won't work out. The reason I don't choose developmental optimism on the offensive line  over DT or LB has a lot to do with our coaches and their track record of developing players in the various positions.

3 hours ago, RpMc said:

As for the corners, why does Hughes, or Mack, being relegated to the fourth corner mean that one of them automatically is termed as “not solid.”

That goes back to our difference on perspective of what it means to be "solid". I believe we've already covered that so I won't go over it again.

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30 minutes ago, vike daddy said:

football to me, and this is nothing but my own personal view and i don't expect or even need others to share it, is about entertainment. it's about having fun. and fun is where you make it to be

 Becoming a father really moved the line on what's important in life, and I began looking at football and sports in general from the vantage point you're taking about. Which really changed things and made being a fan infinitely more enjoyable.

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2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

My biggest problems would be who they could have got in that 2nd round potentially and especially these late 7th round picks who they could have picked as well who are arguably better prospects, will see how it all turns out.  Irv Smith I like just not sure at that specific spot.  If one does not know the players all that well and who they are not picking, obviously one does not have problems with who they picked as much as long as it fills a positional need.  They did do that filling needs, but missed on some more high potential prospects I feel.

Do you think it's possible you're getting a little too wrapped up in your personal evaluations and loosing the forest for the trees?

 

What does your process look like? Do you assign grades to each player or are things a little more open ended?

I'm curious because you consistently bring up the idea of having taken X player over Y Vikings selection, but are you missing the idea that X and Y had the same value for the Vikings but Y helped their spelling a little more?

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3 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said:

Do you think it's possible you're getting a little too wrapped up in your personal evaluations and loosing the forest for the trees?

 

What does your process look like? Do you assign grades to each player or are things a little more open ended?

I'm curious because you consistently bring up the idea of having taken X player over Y Vikings selection, but are you missing the idea that X and Y had the same value for the Vikings but Y helped their spelling a little more?

That is possible I get too wrapped up in it, but follow prospects during their entire career if possible.  One clearly has an opinion and wishes things would go a certain way when it comes to draft time after putting in the work following prospects.  Again if one does not know the other options out there then of course it is all good if it fills a positional need that is assumed to be needed.

 

I rank players FR, SOPH, JR and SR classes and have a running list for years.   Been doing it since 1998 or around that time, has gotten more indepth in the last 10 years though. I change that FR list each year as they progress to SOPH, JR and beyond.   Update it to the draft eligible players that I think should come out, then have to change that after the ones that should not come out also declare.  Basically ranking by position and by class, and do so only on watching the player play.  I try not to read much of what other people have in rankings and do it based off straight visual seeing the player and not being told which one is good or who to watch.  So yeah it is 7-12 games a day on Saturday all season long for years.  Have starting doing general mock rankings.  Currently have a 7 round 2020 mock draft without team needs right now, and had the same thing last year about the same time of year for 2019 and edited it throughout the season.

 

Now is this all a massive waste of time, probably.  But I have no kids and do have time and it is something I enjoy doing.  Do I get too involved, maybe.  So yeah I have an opinion on most of the players in the draft, I do not know them all but most, and I always dive into the UDFA lists to see which guys I like get picked up and have a chance.  Is that a fan perspective, no really it is not but being from Minnesota and a Vikings fan share it here as well.  Maybe that is a bad idea.

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I hope one wouldn’t loose the forest on poor, unsuspecting, trees. 

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Posted (edited)

@Ozzy hey no apologies needed for your hobby!

I didnt mean to implicate that you're too obsessed or something.  I just wonder if you're splitting hairs between similarly graded prospects, maybe because you're only ranking players vertically or something along those lines.

But by all means keep pursuing the hobby man, keep refining your process and getting better. Especially in todays day and age when you can actually make money from home with this stuff.

Edited by Dolmonite26

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Ozzy said:

They are 100% behind the Saints no question about that in my book.  The Packers are gaining on them and the Bears have arguably passed them as well.  The Falcons are going to get back to form, the 49ers should be very good as well and have a ton of defensive talent now especially up front.  Washington is up and coming, the Rams will be around and Seattle is starting to play better with a ton of new players at a variety of positions, not to mention all of these teams have arguably a better QB outside of the Bears and Washington and even that is debatable if one is looking long term outside of right now. 

The Packers just finished 6-9-1 despite a full season from Aaron Rodgers. The Bears had a great year but lost Fangio and some talent in the secondary, we'll see if they come back strong. The Rams and Saints are comparable, probably a little better. You're overrating Atlanta, Washington and especially SF. 

5 hours ago, Ozzy said:

The Patriots lost Solder last year, did not matter, lost Trenton Brown this past season and that will potentially be filled.  They draft really well at all positions and this past draft was no exception.  True Brady plays for nothing but at least he is willing to do it to win instead of a certain QB.  They always find a way and have a standout secondary and players who know how to play and have a system they fit into. They have depth and talent at every position and guys to fill when others leave or get hurt. What is the Vikings system?    Defense maybe but not according to how they played last year compared to the year before.  Will see if running the ball can change things or not and hope it does.  The Patriots lose guys but it never seems to matter, lose free agents all the time and fill the voids constantly it is nuts, and to say that is not skilled drafted well it is.  

The Patriots are experts in turning chicken feathers into chicken dinner. Their pro scouting is excellent but they're not any better at drafting than the rest of the league. They replace guys so easily because they have the best strategic coach in NFL history (Belichick, who's a genius), and the best OL coach in recent memory (Scarnecchia). Brady isn't willing to play for nothing, his wife is a multimillionaire in her own right and the team has a contract with a business Brady owns that pays him money that doesn't count against the cap. Literally no other QB or team in the league have this arrangement. Love it or hate it (personally, I don't like the Patriots at all but I respect them), you'll drive yourself crazy if you compare any team to them. 

5 hours ago, Ozzy said:

If the Vikings are so talented then why did they play like they did last season?  You think they played like a team top 5 much less top 10 in the NFL in talent across the board?  No.  Take the Patriots out of it, many teams and plenty in the NFC are right on par if not ahead of the Vikings I feel especially in their own division.

The Vikings had a bad year last year. Their defensive leader had a mental breakdown and ended up in a psych hospital. The following two games, their defense struggled against the Bills and got lit up by the Rams. Their OL coach died right before the season started. Unsurprisingly, the OL was much worse than the year before, despite what should have been only a mild step down in talent. 

As a team, they might've still done better last year. Some of their players disappointed. They especially didn't step up in high pressure situations. The situation between Zimmer and DeFilippo was weird, and ended badly. 

It's completely fair to point out the flaws, not just with last year but with the Spielman/Zimmer era as a whole. Overall they may have peaked as very good, but not great. I think the Teddy injury really set them back: the Bradford trade was an attempted bandaid that did more harm than good, and while the Cousins signing makes more sense, I'm not a big fan and wonder how high their ceiling can be. 

The team is still in a good situation. They're well managed and well coached. They have one of the best records in the NFL in recent years. They still have a lot of prime age talent, though it's fair to point out that the last couple of years in the draft have been mediocre, and they lost some depth this offseason. 

The NFL is ultra-competitive, and seasons can turn on strokes of luck, good or bad. There's no guarantee the Vikings will be any better this year. But I think they're going to have a chance to contend, as long as the coaching/scheme change fixes the running game and the major contributors stay reasonably healthy. 

This draft class seems more like a step in the right direction than a disappointment. But time will tell.  

 

Edited by Krauser

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8 hours ago, vike daddy said:

could someone make a list of what schools we drafted from this year, please?

any anomalies or similarities to previous drafts? i don't remember the last time we took someone from Alabama, right?

First Alabama name that popped in my head Friday night was John David Booty, but I just realized he was a USC Trojan. Ooops...

2015: Austin Shepherd
1997: Dwayne Rudd
1994: David Palmer
1987: Greg Richardson
1965: Frank McClendon

 

2019 draft class by conference:

Mountain West 4
SEC 2
Big XII 2
Pac-12 2
ACC 1
CAA 1

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1 hour ago, Klomp said:

First Alabama name that popped in my head Friday night was John David Booty, but I just realized he was a USC Trojan. Ooops...

he was born in Louisiana, if that helps you any...

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First of all OZZY is the GOAT!!!  

I Give the vikes draft a B for now.  Sweat and Dillard would have been a more sexy pick in the first yet I understand why they dropped.  However Looking at our rushing totals last year and lack of interior pass protection I totally get the Bradbury and Samia picks, Two zone blocking IOL.  The Mattison pick in the 3rd was also addressed with Murray leaving.  Irv Smith Jr.  Looks like a good value pick and will only be 21 this coming year.  It seems like a perfect fit to bring him along with Rudolph probably moving on next year?  Smith at LB in the 5th is fine by me as we could use a little more LB depth.  Watts and Udoh along with Epps could develop?  Boyd was projected 4th-7th RD apparently, Mitchell and Johnson can come in and compete with the rest of our young wideouts.  And a Long Snapper from Air Force.

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I really like this draft because the Vikes selected best available to fill needs.  Going in to the draft, I didn't think Bradbury would last to 18, but I was also really high on Lindstrom.  I also watched a lot of WAZZU games last year and the two players that jumped off the screen were Dillard and Minshew.  Would've loved Dillard, but like many, I think Bradbury kills two birds with one stone . . . and gives the Vikes higher quality back-up/depth for two centers+.  

I also really, really like the Irv Smith pic . . . in this system with Kubiak, he'll become Shannon Sharpe re-incarnate, or at least used that way.  Not sure about Mattison, but if Cook tweaks a nail again, he may not see the field.  Under Kubiak and the Shanahan system, his successful teams the RBs typically carry 300+ per season and get 4.5 ypc or better.  

I'm looking forward to seeing how the team evolves the next 5-6 months . . . SKOL!

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Back with some thoughts on the overall Vikings draft.

There were some interesting numbers that were going around the draft that probably are worth knowing. That's primarily that 3rd round picks 7% chance of being a pro-bowler, 7th round picks, 3% chance of being a pro-bowler. That one was just cool.

As for the actual picks and what they are doing. I really like the two picks they invested into the offensive line in early and mid rounds. (early 1, mid 2-4, late 5-7)

I think that both Bradbury and Samia have a chance to be starting from day one.

I also think that the RB in round 3 is going to be an underrated pick. He has some wear from how much he's run, but one thing that wasn't mentioned much or probably should have been mentioned more, in the coverage, is that as a 3rd down back, he's a good blocking back. A good blocking RB is basically a  unicorn in college, and that helps Cousins.

Irv Smith was an easy BPA in round two, I like that pick, could have gone in round one.

I think the later rounds are so hard to judge. We want the players who the "experts" had up high on their big board like Willis and Hall, but thre are reasons that so many teams passed on them for so long that we don't know and it's easy for us to judge them as being bad picks. Oddly enough the LS, that frees up the money we need. I wonder if the Vikings will continue to listen to call on Rudolph, Waynes, and Rhodes.

Overall, I think they did a good job early on, and went with interesting prospects later on.

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10 hours ago, Klomp said:

 

He was great in Kangaroo Jack and Me, Myself and Irene.  

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