The Nation vs Mayock

[Steins Gate]

My only change would be Josh Allen instead of Clelin Ferrell. I like what Mayock did overall. 

His drafting style works best when he is not drafting high in the 1st round IMO. We will never know this, but I think Ferrell would've been there at 24. Mayock didn't get a good enough trade down deal, so he took Ferrell at 4. 

The main reason that I don't do mocks, it's too difficult to anticipate what other teams are going to do. 

[OG_C2X]

1 hour ago, Steins Gate said:

My only change would be Josh Allen instead of Clelin Ferrell. I like what Mayock did overall. 

His drafting style works best when he is not drafting high in the 1st round IMO. We will never know this, but I think Ferrell would've been there at 24. Mayock didn't get a good enough trade down deal, so he took Ferrell at 4. 

The main reason that I don't do mocks, it's too difficult to anticipate what other teams are going to do. 

Hahahahahahahah not a chance. Clearly the #2 DE in the draft to Bosa. I think its more likely that all 32 teams had him as a top 10 player.

[Steins Gate]

3 hours ago, OG_C2X said:

Hahahahahahahah not a chance. Clearly the #2 DE in the draft to Bosa. I think its more likely that all 32 teams had him as a top 10 player.

Clear to who?? Before you make a claim like that, know your facts. 

Draftwire Link, Draftek Link, Fantasypros Link, NFL.com Link, CBSsports Link, Washingtonpost Link, NFLdraftgeek Link, 

Didn't include ESPN because I'm not a subscriber. 7 links and only CBS sports had Ferrell ahead of Allen. And even then, Ferrell was the 4th best edge rusher. NONE of these sites had Ferrell as the 2nd best edge rusher. All but CBS had Josh Allen as the 2nd best edge (Fantasypros made a typo by making Josh Allen a DT). Josh Allen was the clear #2 DE. 

And considering Ferrell's stock was all over the place, there was no way to pinpoint exactly where he would get drafted. When I said that he would've gotten draft at 24, it was speculation (albeit an educated guess). 

[raidr4life]

43 minutes ago, Steins Gate said:

Clear to who?? Before you make a claim like that, know your facts. 

Draftwire Link, Draftek Link, Fantasypros Link, NFL.com Link, CBSsports Link, Washingtonpost Link, NFLdraftgeek Link, 

Didn't include ESPN because I'm not a subscriber. 7 links and only CBS sports had Ferrell ahead of Allen. And even then, Ferrell was the 4th best edge rusher. NONE of these sites had Ferrell as the 2nd best edge rusher. All but CBS had Josh Allen as the 2nd best edge (Fantasypros made a typo by making Josh Allen a DT). Josh Allen was the clear #2 DE. 

And considering Ferrell's stock was all over the place, there was no way to pinpoint exactly where he would get drafted. When I said that he would've gotten draft at 24, it was speculation (albeit an educated guess). 

None of those links have him falling into the 20's. Your evidence.

[drfrey13]

7 minutes ago, raidr4life said:

None of those links have him falling into the 20's. Your evidence.

He was not saying it was clear he would make it to 24 but rather clear that Ferrell was not considered the #2 DE or a top 10 talent.  I thought Ferrell would have been a good choice in the mid to late teens but still not angry if we got him in the 10-12 range.  I hated the choice with Allen and White still on the board.  I still think those 2 would have been much better choices but am starting to warm up to Ferrell.  Hopefully he takes a big step forward next year.  Would be very happy to say that Crosby is our 2nd best DE next year without Crosby regressing.

Edited January 6, 2020 by drfrey13

[Steins Gate]

3 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

He was not saying it was clear he would make it to 24 but rather clear that Ferrell was not considered the #2 DE or a top 10 talent.  I thought Ferrell would have been a good choice in the mid to late teens but still not angry if we got him in the 10-12 range.  I hated the choice with Allen and White still on the board.  I still think those 2 would have been much better choices but am starting to warm up to Ferrell.  Hopefully he takes a big step forward next year.  Would be very happy to say that Crosby is our 2nd best DE next year without Crosby regressing.

Thank you!

10 minutes ago, raidr4life said:

None of those links have him falling into the 20's. Your evidence.

Just for the record, NFLdraftgeek has him ranked 27th in the top 102 page.

[OG_C2X]

6 hours ago, Steins Gate said:

Clear to who?? Before you make a claim like that, know your facts. 

Draftwire Link, Draftek Link, Fantasypros Link, NFL.com Link, CBSsports Link, Washingtonpost Link, NFLdraftgeek Link, 

Didn't include ESPN because I'm not a subscriber. 7 links and only CBS sports had Ferrell ahead of Allen. And even then, Ferrell was the 4th best edge rusher. NONE of these sites had Ferrell as the 2nd best edge rusher. All but CBS had Josh Allen as the 2nd best edge (Fantasypros made a typo by making Josh Allen a DT). Josh Allen was the clear #2 DE. 

And considering Ferrell's stock was all over the place, there was no way to pinpoint exactly where he would get drafted. When I said that he would've gotten draft at 24, it was speculation (albeit an educated guess). 

The funny thing is 2 years ago I never knew what any of those sites were. There was only 1 big board I cared about during the pre draft process. Mike Mayocks. His influence of every website's draft board was very much felt this past draft season. Everyone was all over the place. If Mayock was on TV still not in the Raiders Front office. Every site would have had Ferrell #2 4-3 DE. 

Edge and DE are to VERY different things.

[raidr4life]

9 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

He was not saying it was clear he would make it to 24 but rather clear that Ferrell was not considered the #2 DE or a top 10 talent.  I thought Ferrell would have been a good choice in the mid to late teens but still not angry if we got him in the 10-12 range.  I hated the choice with Allen and White still on the board.  I still think those 2 would have been much better choices but am starting to warm up to Ferrell.  Hopefully he takes a big step forward next year.  Would be very happy to say that Crosby is our 2nd best DE next year without Crosby regressing.

Quote

His drafting style works best when he is not drafting high in the 1st round IMO. We will never know this, but I think Ferrell would've been there at 24. Mayock didn't get a good enough trade down deal, so he took Ferrell at 4. 

Seems clear to me. He only backtracked some when like i said none of his own evidence had Ferrell going that late. For the record White has been horrible, and I stand by Bush being the better player.

Edited January 6, 2020 by raidr4life

[raidr4life]

9 hours ago, Steins Gate said:

Thank you!

Just for the record, NFLdraftgeek has him ranked 27th in the top 102 page.

It's a ranking not an actual mock, I mean they have Kyler Murray near the 30's

Edited January 6, 2020 by raidr4life

[raidr4life]

3 hours ago, OG_C2X said:

The funny thing is 2 years ago I never knew what any of those sites were. There was only 1 big board I cared about during the pre draft process. Mike Mayocks. His influence of every website's draft board was very much felt this past draft season. Everyone was all over the place. If Mayock was on TV still not in the Raiders Front office. Every site would have had Ferrell #2 4-3 DE. 

Edge and DE are to VERY different things.

Exactly Edge ranking is not the same as strictly 43 Defensive end ranking.

[NYRaider]

10 hours ago, Steins Gate said:

Clear to who?? Before you make a claim like that, know your facts. 

Draftwire Link, Draftek Link, Fantasypros Link, NFL.com Link, CBSsports Link, Washingtonpost Link, NFLdraftgeek Link, 

Didn't include ESPN because I'm not a subscriber. 7 links and only CBS sports had Ferrell ahead of Allen. And even then, Ferrell was the 4th best edge rusher. NONE of these sites had Ferrell as the 2nd best edge rusher. All but CBS had Josh Allen as the 2nd best edge (Fantasypros made a typo by making Josh Allen a DT). Josh Allen was the clear #2 DE. 

And considering Ferrell's stock was all over the place, there was no way to pinpoint exactly where he would get drafted. When I said that he would've gotten draft at 24, it was speculation (albeit an educated guess). 

Josh Allen was clearly the 2nd best edge in the draft, Vic Tafur said that we just didn't think he could be a full time edge in Paul Gunther's system. Hell, IIRC a lot of places had Brian Burns ranked ahead of Ferrell too. Almost everyone had Ferrell being drafted in the 15-25 range.

[drfrey13]

44 minutes ago, raidr4life said:

Seems clear to me. He only backtracked some when like i said none of his own evidence had Ferrell going that late. For the record White has been horrible, and I stand by Bush being the better player.

I think it was clear that Bush would be a better player in the beginning because he was more pro ready and White is still learning the LBer position.  It is very easy to see that White takes a lot of false steps but still is able to recover because athletically he is elite.  I would have to argue however that White has been horrible.  He was injured in the beginning of the year but has slowly shown progress.  He also finished 5th in DROY voting in a tie with Crosby and many of us have said we would be happy with drafting Crosby at #4 after this year.  In the begginning he was very similar to Ferrell who was a ghost the first part of the year who is showing up now.  Difference is that Ferrell was suppose to be ready day 1 and White was questionable whether his athletics traits would over come his mental deficiencies.  White may have also hit the rookie wall at the end of the year.  You never know which players will and when.  I still believe that White was a better prospect.  I have liked Ferrell and am happy he is on the team but I do believe White ends up being a difference maker while Ferrell ends up being a good starter.

[raidr4life]

3 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I think it was clear that Bush would be a better player in the beginning because he was more pro ready and White is still learning the LBer position.  It is very easy to see that White takes a lot of false steps but still is able to recover because athletically he is elite.  I would have to argue however that White has been horrible.  He was injured in the beginning of the year but has slowly shown progress.  He also finished 5th in DROY voting in a tie with Crosby and many of us have said we would be happy with drafting Crosby at #4 after this year.  In the begginning he was very similar to Ferrell who was a ghost the first part of the year who is showing up now.  Difference is that Ferrell was suppose to be ready day 1 and White was questionable whether his athletics traits would over come his mental deficiencies.  White may have also hit the rookie wall at the end of the year.  You never know which players will and when.  I still believe that White was a better prospect.  I have liked Ferrell and am happy he is on the team but I do believe White ends up being a difference maker while Ferrell ends up being a good starter.

Fair enough time will tell.

[drfrey13]

1 minute ago, raidr4life said:

Fair enough time will tell.

I get to be happy either way.  I either look smart or the team I love got another great player.

[Rich7sena]

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, OG_C2X said:

The funny thing is 2 years ago I never knew what any of those sites were. There was only 1 big board I cared about during the pre draft process. Mike Mayocks. His influence of every website's draft board was very much felt this past draft season. Everyone was all over the place. If Mayock was on TV still not in the Raiders Front office. Every site would have had Ferrell #2 4-3 DE. 

Edge and DE are to VERY different things.

This was a myth perpetuated by Rich Eison, coincidentally also on NFL Network. Mayock was not nearly as influential as the rumors would have you believe. I, personally, relied more on Daniel Jeremiah's and Lance Zierlein who were also on NFL Network.

It's also a myth that De and Edge are very different things. In fact, they're more the same than ever. Guys routinely play with both their hands in the ground and in a two-point stance in the same game. Mayock had a good draft, I even wrote as such when it happened, but picking Ferrell over Allen was malpractice.

Also, this is more of a semantic point, but to me, edge means either a 6-9 technique in a 4-3 or an outside linebacker in a 3-4. But that distinction is largely pointless with teams being in nickel more often than not.