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2020 NFL Draft Discussion

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4 hours ago, Scoremore said:

Don't sleep on Moore either.  Yes he didn't see the field in his rookie season but the guy has talent.  He might be a pleasant surprise this year.  Shake and bake he has it just has to get his head screwed on straight.  Reminds me of a bigger Adams.

I was under the impression that part of Moore's issue was picking up the playbook? If that's true then a new scheme might not be the best thing for him (then again who knows if a different coach just helps it click.)

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9 hours ago, chillparsi1 said:

I was under the impression that part of Moore's issue was picking up the playbook? If that's true then a new scheme might not be the best thing for him (then again who knows if a different coach just helps it click.)

Yes that was the problem.  Got in Aaron's doghouse too.  He will have to give 100% and act like a pro if he want to see the field.  Once in Rodger's doghouse it's tough to get  out. Thinking the same thing new system might be better suited for him.  Preparation is the key for Moore.  Hopefully last year was a wake up call.

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Posted (edited)

I am wondering who the prime slot receiver will be.


Allison. Will probably make a fairly solid  slot option. Not special in any way, but workable.
MVS is the fastest of the Packers receivers, pretty special with his length, but I want this guy on the outside. His 6'4", 4.37 40, and 80" wingspan, are special.
ESB is very athletic and might be a very nice slot option. More of an unknown than Allison, but a higher ceiling.
J'Mon Moore has the movement in and out of breaks that you want in a slot receiver. smaller than MVS or ESB, he is still 6'3". 2nd year will be key for him.

Later edit: One guy i forgot about, was Kumerow. He could be fine in the slot. There certainly are plenty of options. Probably any receiver who stays a few years will cross-train at all the spots, but the main guy, who knows at this time.

Edited by OneTwoSixFive

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12 hours ago, HighCalebR said:

Jordy going into 2010 had only 680 receiving yards and 4 TD's he only added 580 and 2 TD's Super bowl year.  Donald Driver added 560 and 4 TDs in 2010. Jones contributed 680 and 5 TD's. Between Allison and the 3 young guys I think they Definitely have a shot at replacing that production.

I feel like you're using name recognition more than what actually happened. MVS produced this year what Jordy did in 2010, you're obviously overrating or underrating one of those players. I think asking Allison to contribute Jones' amount isn't out of this world. So if we're comparing 2010 to the level we need to be at do you think it would be THAT difficult to replicate the production Driver put out that year?

Jordy Nelson had 2 NFL starts going into 2010.  He was a high end NFL prospect who played on a team that was loaded with talent at WR.  It wasn't a talent issue with Nelson, it was an oppurtunity issue.  EQ had more starts in his rookie year than Jordy had in his first 3 regular season's combined.  He got the last 3 starts of those 2010 playoffs and he had 21 catches, almost 300 yards and 2 TDs.  

Has nothing to do with name recofnition and everything to do with talent level.  That 2010 WR core was one of the most loaded WR cores the NFL has ever seen.  Jennings was a all pro caliber talent.  Donald Driver was a pro bowl caliber talent who was fresh off 7 1000+ yard seasons in 8 seasons.  James Jones was a very good #3 who had a knack to score a bunch of TDs.  Jordy was a 3rd year guy only had 2 NFL starts going into the season because of the amazing depth GB had at the position.   

I am not all that interested in comparing the production of the rookies to past players. MVS had 3 times as many starts as Nelson did in 2010, of course he out produced him.  I find nothing objective about trying to make MVS out to be a better player than Nelson because he was slightly more productive with substantially more PT and oppurtunity.  

 

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18 hours ago, SAM said:

A WR, since they passed on so many good ones this year.

2019 was not a strong WR class.  Don't mistake "the best one this year" for  a player who is actually good.  Guys who would see the field before Allison and the sophomore guys ran out quick in 2019.

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Haha Jennings was all pro. Nah he wasnt, never once. Davante is a better receiver than Jennings ever was. Donald hadn't been selected to a pro bowl in 3 years and was 35 years old, and fell off the age cliff that year that's name recognition. He was getting those yards because of opportunity,  something you knock a 5th round rookie for getting? People were questioning if Jordy could take the next step, I mean he couldnt even beat out an aging vet or a mid round pick. That year would be the jumping point for the rest of his career but he needed to grow and develop into that guy. Jones was a 4th year vet who never had broke 700 yards, Allison is similarly talented but hasnt put it all together.  They were a very deep and solid group no doubt, but Aaron was the catalyst for it being a great dynamic. That's your argument if you dont want to use stats 

Theres reasons people should be excited about this group but if you want to be a pessimist that's on you. Will it all work out? Maybe, maybe not but that's what happens when theres finite resources. Even if Gute was to bring someone else in it's not guaranteed theyd be any good with us. They believe in the kids and all we can do is hope they're right because they're with them every day.

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10 minutes ago, HighCalebR said:

Haha Jennings was all pro. Nah he wasnt, never once. Davante is a better receiver than Jennings ever was. Donald hadn't been selected to a pro bowl in 3 years and was 35 years old, and fell off the age cliff that year that's name recognition. He was getting those yards because of opportunity,  something you knock a 5th round rookie for getting? People were questioning if Jordy could take the next step, I mean he couldnt even beat out an aging vet or a mid round pick. That year would be the jumping point for the rest of his career but he needed to grow and develop into that guy. Jones was a 4th year vet who never had broke 700 yards, Allison is similarly talented but hasnt put it all together.  They were a very deep and solid group no doubt, but Aaron was the catalyst for it being a great dynamic. That's your argument if you dont want to use stats 

Theres reasons people should be excited about this group but if you want to be a pessimist that's on you. Will it all work out? Maybe, maybe not but that's what happens when theres finite resources. Even if Gute was to bring someone else in it's not guaranteed theyd be any good with us. They believe in the kids and all we can do is hope they're right because they're with them every day.

I said all pro caliber, which IMO is the same level WR that Adams is right now.  Calvin Johnson was a first team all-pro in 2010 with 1 more catch, 145 fewer yards receiving and the same number of TDs.  That season Jennings production was better than or in the same area as 3 WRs who were nominated to that 2010 all pro team.  He wasn't an all pro, he was "all pro caliber".

There isn't a former Packer that I have more distain for then Greg Jennings but it's extremely debatable who is the better WR at this point in their careers between him and Adams.  They are/ were completely different WRs.  Adams is possession WR that has more catches.  Jennings was a big play WR (16+ yards per catch over those first 5 years) who had substantially more yards and more TDs (more than a 1000 more yards and 2 more TDs).  His 5th year was in 2010 and was one of the best WRs in the league.  While Adams was more productive in his 5th year than Jennings, he got a 45 extra target.  That is almost 6 games worth of targets at the pace #85 got the ball thrown to him in 2010.

I don't care when the last time Driver made a pro bowl was.  I said pro bowl caliber.  The year prior to the Super Bowl DD was a 70 catch, 1060 yard, 6 TD WR.  Chad Johnson that year was a pro bowl WR with 72 catches, 1045 yards and 9 TDs.  If you feel the need to make Driver out to be a scrub who was getting targets based on name alone, more power to you.  I think 2010 Donald Driver was a  better and more reliable WR than any WR we've currently got on the roster not named Adams.  He certainly wasn't the guy he was 5 years prior but I find the idea that he went from being in the pro bowl conversation in 2009 to being completely done in 2010 to be a reach.

I'm not knocking a 5th round rookie for his opportunity but I'll be damned put anything into a comparison between 12 starts and 2 starts in an attempt to make a player sound better than he is.  Production by itself doesn't automatically make a WR starting caliber (Ie Jarrett Boykin in 2013).

How can you possibly rip Jones for not having 700 yards in a season when Allison has just 750 yards in his 3 year career?  James Jones certainly wasn't a star WR but he was a very good #3 WR.   I need more than a 4 game sample size before I can put Allison in the same category as James Jones.

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@SSG apparently words dont have meaning if you put a caveat of "caliber" behind it ok.

 Your entire argument is based in a pessimistic mindspace. You can keep it, I wont argue against your position that all of our current players are worse than all of our retired players.

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So I love Adams, but I'm not sure there's an argument to be made that he's clearly above Jennings. Jennings was fantastic.

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Ya I'll cede that. Better than Jennings was poor debating. I was thinking as good as, but got caught up in being contrarian. 

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I'm taking 2018 Adams over prime Jennings all day everyday. It's not even really that close either. I was a big time GJ85 fan but what Adams did last year and who he did it against was beyond impressive. I'm taking guy that over any former Packer in their prime not named Lofton or Sharpe. You could maybe convince me on Jordy too. 

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1 hour ago, HighCalebR said:

@SSG apparently words dont have meaning if you put a caveat of "caliber" behind it ok.

 Your entire argument is based in a pessimistic mindspace. You can keep it, I wont argue against your position that all of our current players are worse than all of our retired players.

Words have plenty of meaning. A definition of caliber is literally, "level of ability".  If you want to make Driver or Jennings out to be terrible players to better support your argument more power to you but there was absolutely nothing wrong with the statements.  

My argument is based on the dumpster fire that our offense was last year.  We seen the offense with MVS and EQ as the #2 and #3 option and it wasn't a playoff "caliber" offense IMO.  If you want to assume career years from every WR more power to you but I'm not going to assume some of our WRs are going to triple the production they seen in their best season.  

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6 hours ago, SSG said:

MVS had 3 times as many starts as Nelson did in 2010, of course he out produced him.  I find nothing objective about trying to make MVS out to be a better player than Nelson because he was slightly more productive with substantially more PT and oppurtunity.  

Starts mean nothing...how did they produce per snap?

Jordy ranked 51st in DVOA his rookie year. Greg Jennings ranked 81st. James Jones ranked 69th. Driver ranked 47th his 2nd season.

MVS was 63rd and ESB would have been 54th if he had as many opportunities to qualify.

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15 minutes ago, wgbeethree said:

I'm taking 2018 Adams over prime Jennings all day everyday. It's not even really that close either. I was a big time GJ85 fan but what Adams did last year and who he did it against was beyond impressive. I'm taking guy that over any former Packer in their prime not named Lofton or Sharpe. You could maybe convince me on Jordy too. 

Production doesn't support this.  Jennings was substantially more productive thru year 5.  This was the first season Adams approached #85's best seasons and he needed 45 extra targets to do so.  At their bests so far, Jennings was substantially more productive on a per target basis.  I love Adams and can't stand Jennings but 85 was big play and TD machine when he was at his best in GB.  Think there is a ton of recently bias in this opinion.  

Of the WRs I've watched, he'd be behind Sterling, Lofton, Nelson, Freeman and Jennings in my eyes.  A couple more years like last year and he'll pass Jennings and Freeman on my list.  

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23 minutes ago, SSG said:

Words have plenty of meaning.   

They certainly do.

For instance, when you labeled Adams a bust in his 2nd season, your words lost any and all relevance concerning Adams.

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