2020 NFL Draft Discussion

[SSG]

15 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

If your Back is a step behind you to your left, and the defender decided to go around you to your right, that is mission accomplished. The defender is out of the play.

Bulaga letting the guy through is a bigger issue on that play than Graham.

Also, does that Twitter account do anything other than follow Graham around?

Jimmy Graham had no idea where the back was or where he was going.  It's down right embarrassing to watch you pawn that off as a good block.  There were 2 guys that he could have hit and he didn't lay a finger on either.  It's like he was blocking with his eyes closed and his hands in his pockets.

That's the first video I'd ever seen posted by the account in regards to Graham so I don't have any idea if they follow him around.  Given that he's an awful football player who's being paid like an elite difference maker I'd understand if they had a twitter feed just designated for him.  It's like paying Dean Lowry JJ Watt type of money.

[mikemike778]

13 minutes ago, SSG said:

Because that's the sense I get.   Everything is Aaron Rodgers fault.  He's a terrible pre-snap QB, with no arm, terrible accuracy, holds onto the ball way too long and would rather lose than throw it to someone not named Adams.  Guys like Jimmy Graham and MVS aren't playing up to the level we anticipated for no other reason than bad QB play.  I get it, he makes a lot of money and some think he should be playing for free but there is no reason #12 is the ONLY player on the offense who be criticized and some weeks he's absolutely trashed regardless of how well he does or doesn't play.  He's the only one some want to hold accountable while their making a dozen excuses for the rest of the guys who aren't carrying their weight.  if he's not standing on his head and playing the position blind folded he's the only reason the offense is struggling.

 

 

Its all bit strange.

Rodgers QB Rating (and it obviously isn't the be all and end all) isn't a mile off his career average despite playing with a very weak set of receivers (and yeah I know people think they have disproved it but we had Geronimo Allison who is a possession receiver that can't catch as our WR2 this week - its a bad set of receivers). 

He has obviously declined to an extent and people aren't blind to his faults but he has generally speaking got it done. We are 10-3  and it isn't just down to the under-performing defence and it definitely isn't because of the array of weapons we have at receiver. He does hold onto the ball too long but its better to hold on too long than too early. Interceptions lose you matches. He isn't throwing them and we aren't losing them. Outside of Adams, the other receivers aren't going to scare anyone so whilst you can (and he is) be too conservative, generally speaking when you have mediocre options at receiver, you should be more conservative in the passing game.

Everywhere you see Rodgers should be able to put up elite numbers throwing to JAGs because he gets paid 30m. What about the defence - we have top end pass rushers, numerous high picks in the secondary, a stud DT in Clark, a rebuilt safety position with a top pick ad a free agent.  Why isn't the defence elite ?   Why can't we manoeuvre the lesser talent in defence around the star players ?  Why do we need elite players at every single position in defence before it is fixed ?

Again, careful not to over defend him as he does drive me mad. But we may spend the next 30 years looking for a QB like the Bears have been doing. We have one now so see if he can still do it if given decent receivers. If he can't then maybe he is done. But at least try.

[SSG]

Just now, Packerraymond said:

It's not a good block or a bad play. His guy doesn't make the tackle and the run goes for what looks like 6-8. Absolutely no reason to call attention to it unless you have a clear and obvious agenda, which you both do.

  

Don't harp about having agendas when you pretty clearly have one.  The fact that you can say that wasn't a bad play Graham says it all.  The fact that his guy doesn't make the tackle doesn't make the attempt at the "block" any better.  

[AlexGreen#20]

2 minutes ago, SSG said:

Jimmy Graham had no idea where the back was or where he was going.  It's down right embarrassing to watch you pawn that off as a good block.  There were 2 guys that he could have hit and he didn't lay a finger on either.  It's like he was blocking with his eyes closed and his hands in his pockets.

That's the first video I'd ever seen posted by the account in regards to Graham so I don't have any idea if they follow him around.  Given that he's an awful football player who's being paid like an elite difference maker I'd understand if they had a twitter feed just designated for him.  It's like paying Dean Lowry JJ Watt type of money.

It's not a good block. It's not a bad clock. It's like a 7 yard run and Graham "missing the block" doesn't affect the play. If that's the clip you're posting of Graham as a bad blocker, Graham is a pretty good blocker. 

He's not an awful football player. He's a middle of the road starting TE with a QB who doesn't look for him. Is he overpaid? Yeah. But he's only making 10per. That's not a cap crippling contract by any stretch.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

8 minutes ago, SSG said:

  

Don't harp about having agendas when you pretty clearly have one.  The fact that you can say that wasn't a bad play Graham says it all.  The fact that his guy doesn't make the tackle doesn't make the attempt at the "block" any better.  

What do you make of Bulaga doing the same thing Graham did?  Bulaga had an easy block on the guy to the left and ran by instead.

Curious what you think of that?  

[SSG]

6 minutes ago, mikemike778 said:

 

Its all bit strange.

Rodgers QB Rating (and it obviously isn't the be all and end all) isn't a mile off his career average despite playing with a very weak set of receivers (and yeah I know people think they have disproved it but we had Geronimo Allison who is a possession receiver that can't catch as our WR2 this week - its a bad set of receivers). 

He has obviously declined to an extent and people aren't blind to his faults but he has generally speaking got it done. We are 10-3  and it isn't just down to the under-performing defence and it definitely isn't because of the array of weapons we have at receiver. He does hold onto the ball too long but its better to hold on too long than too early. Interceptions lose you matches. He isn't throwing them and we aren't losing them. Outside of Adams, the other receivers aren't going to scare anyone so whilst you can (and he is) be too conservative, generally speaking when you have mediocre options at receiver, you should be more conservative in the passing game.

Everywhere you see Rodgers should be able to put up elite numbers throwing to JAGs because he gets paid 30m. What about the defence - we have top end pass rushers, numerous high picks in the secondary, a stud DT in Clark, a rebuilt safety position with a top pick ad a free agent.  Why isn't the defence elite ?   Why can't we manoeuvre the lesser talent in defence around the star players ?  Why do we need elite players at every single position in defence before it is fixed ?

Again, careful not to over defend him as he does drive me mad. But we may spend the next 30 years looking for a QB like the Bears have been doing. We have one now so see if he can still do it if given decent receivers. If he can't then maybe he is done. But at least try.

Completely agree.  I'm not saying Rodgers doesn't deserve some criticism, I'm saying that he shouldn't be the only one getting it.  Blaming the lack of production of MVS or Graham on the QB is agenda driven garbage IMO.  Some of those "fans" hate Aaron Rodgers and want to see him fail.  He's probably not the player he was 5 years ago so I'm not sure why we're expecting him to carry an offense with piss poor talent at WR.  I don't care what Drew Brees and Tom Brady (who's offense currently looks like garbage without WRs) have done over their careers.  I don't think Aaron Rodgers wouldn't be the player he is today if he abandoned his strengths and modeled his game after Tom Brady or Drew Brees.  

[SSG]

6 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

What do you make of Bulaga doing the same thing Graham did?  Bulaga had an easy block on the guy to the left and ran by instead.

Curious what you think of that?  

BB's attempt was just as bad as Grahams.  He didn't split 2 defenders without getting a finger on either but he totally whiffed on the block.  

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

17 minutes ago, SSG said:

BB's attempt was just as bad as Grahams.  He didn't split 2 defenders without getting a finger on either but he totally whiffed on the block.  

 

A little perspective:

This play is with 0:54 left in the second quarter.  It is 3rd and 14.

The decision to run the ball indicates that MLF feels the correct move is to burn clock and limit the Giants time with the ball, getting out of the half.

These are two vets who know what the plan is and aren't going to get injured on meaningless contact.

This is the problem with twitter- the context of the situation is lost.

[SSG]

4 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

A little perspective:

This play is with 0:54 left in the second quarter.  It is 3rd and 14.

The decision to run the ball indicates that MLF feels the correct move is to burn clock and limit the Giants time with the ball, getting out of the half.

These are two vets who know what the plan is and aren't going to get injured on meaningless contact.

This is the problem with twitter- the context of the situation is lost.

Thanks for stating the situation but I'm not sure it changes the fact that the "blocks" weren't anything but awful.  Look at Graham's reaction after the play.  That wasn't a reaction by a player who viewed the "block" as a success.  

That's just one clip though.  There are a bunch of examples of Graham's terrible efforts at blocking this year.  Whether it was almost getting Rodgers killed against Minnesota or his piss poor attempt on Collins this last week (who went through him to make the "tackle") against Washington.  If this was a Viking we were talking about, he'd be getting killed by the same fans who are calling that play a success.    

I'll be the first to admit I'm bias.  I don't think he's a quality football player and I'm not sure he brings one single positive to the team.  I'm looking forward to finally ridding ourselves of the mistake.  He was brought in to be an elite difference maker and he's holding the offense back more than he's helping it IMO.  He's dropped more TDs than he's caught this year and has generally played at a replacement player level despite being the highest paid TE in NFL history.  Rodgers is being killed for not meeting the expectations that come with his contract but Graham gets the  "ahh, it's only 10 million, that isn't that much".  Not sure what happened to his athleticism but it's gone.  He's generally not running by a defender unless the defender slips or falls down.  He reminds me of Richard Rodgers.  He's had a couple catches in the flats this year without a defender in sight that are truly cringe worthy.  

[AlexGreen#20]

26 minutes ago, SSG said:

Thanks for stating the situation but I'm not sure it changes the fact that the "blocks" weren't anything but awful.  Look at Graham's reaction after the play.  That wasn't a reaction by a player who viewed the "block" as a success.  

That's just one clip though.  There are a bunch of examples of Graham's terrible efforts at blocking this year.  Whether it was almost getting Rodgers killed against Minnesota or his piss poor attempt on Collins this last week (who went through him to make the "tackle") against Washington.  If this was a Viking we were talking about, he'd be getting killed by the same fans who are calling that play a success.    

I'll be the first to admit I'm bias.  I don't think he's a quality football player and I'm not sure he brings one single positive to the team.  I'm looking forward to finally ridding ourselves of the mistake.  He was brought in to be an elite difference maker and he's holding the offense back more than he's helping it IMO.  He's dropped more TDs than he's caught this year and has generally played at a replacement player level despite being the highest paid TE in NFL history.  Rodgers is being killed for not meeting the expectations that come with his contract but Graham gets the  "ahh, it's only 10 million, that isn't that much".  Not sure what happened to his athleticism but it's gone.  He's generally not running by a defender unless the defender slips or falls down.  He reminds me of Richard Rodgers.  He's had a couple catches in the flats this year without a defender in sight that are truly cringe worthy.  

What's the time stamp on the Collins hit you're referencing?

[vegas492]

5 hours ago, Leader said:

Injuries to Tonyan have pretty much cancelled out this portion of the equation.

The numbers are all JGs: 13 games / 32 receptions / 48 targets / 382 yards / 11.9 avg / 3 TDs / 19 first downs. 

Tonyan YTD: 8 games / 7 receptions / 10 targets / 86 yards / 12.3 avg / 1 TD / 4 first downs. 

Perhaps Tonyan is able to pick it up in the remaining games and project favorably for 2020. Time will tell.

It's not about production, it is about game snaps.  I'm thrilled that he's gotten quite a few NFL snaps.  It will do nothing but further his advancement.  Hoping that Jace gets some more game reps, too.  All it can do is help them.

[vegas492]

4 hours ago, SSG said:

 

That's how I feel.  Jimmy Graham hurts this offense far more than he helps it.  He's dropped more TDs than he's caught this year and he's not all that great of a fit.  He's absolutely disgusting as a blocker and is almost useless in the flats.  How many times this year have we seen him get the ball in a wide open flats needing 4 or 5 yards and he's not able to get it?  

While I'd prefer to make another draft investment into the position (though I'm not sure that's in the cards given our other holes), I could live with Lewis/ Tonyan/ Jace next year.  Frankly, I'm not sure Graham is any sort of upgrade over Lewis anymore as a receiver given his inability to run.  Probably close to a wash as a receiver without Lewis being a worthless tackling dummy when it comes to blocking.  

We can't afford to continue to pay Graham like he's a super star when he's not any better than a replacement level player.  

 

3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Graham isn't a worthless blocker. He's been just fine. Graham being a worthless blocker has been more meme than fact for like 6 years now.

Graham is miles better as a receiver than Lewis who genuinely is worthless as a receiver unless the linebacker assigned to cover him bites hard on play action. 

Graham falls into the same problem as MVS, they're big play guys with a QB who doesn't like to throw to them and is now terrible on the big play.

As AG points out, Graham's non-blocking is more myth than reality.  He's fine there right now.  And I feel like Tonyan may be a little better as far as blocking goes.

I must say, though, that I too am disappointed by his inability to catch tough balls.  I thought his catch radius was a positive of his and in a few of these occasions, he's failed.  Which means our ultra conservative QB simply isn't giving those contested balls anymore.

[SSG]

4 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

What's the time stamp on the Collins hit you're referencing?

Don't have it off the time of my head an d I'm not sure if anyone's made a clip yet.  Left sideline, Collins went through Graham and was leveled by Jones.  

[vegas492]

2 hours ago, SSG said:

Because that's the sense I get.   Everything is Aaron Rodgers fault.  He's a terrible pre-snap QB, with no arm, terrible accuracy, holds onto the ball way too long and would rather lose than throw it to someone not named Adams.  Guys like Jimmy Graham and MVS aren't playing up to the level we anticipated for no other reason than bad QB play.  I get it, he makes a lot of money and some think he should be playing for free but there is no reason #12 is the ONLY player on the offense who should be getting criticized and some weeks he's absolutely trashed regardless of how well he does or doesn't play.  He's the only one some want to hold accountable while they're making dozens of excuses for the rest of the guys who aren't carrying their weight.  If he's not standing on his head and playing the position blind folded he's the only reason the offense is struggling.

 

I get the Graham angst.  I do.  He's not worth the money, but it is money we needed to spend on that position this year due to the structure of the contract.  He's fine.

Our QB has missed plenty.  But it isn't all his fault.  What if half those Jones TD rushes were simply passes?  Rodgers QBR goes way up and we aren't really singing the same song.

To give ARod credit, he's been fine with handing the ball off at the goal line and taking the rushing score.  I haven't heard him talk negatively about that, so that there is a nice "win".

[HighCalebR]

Here go.

@AlexGreen#20

Edited December 10, 2019 by HighCalebR