Jump to content

Lets Discuss All Things Wrestling - Even The T-Shirt Company AEW!


steelcurtain29

Recommended Posts

On 3/6/2023 at 8:48 AM, StLunatic88 said:

In general, ending an Ironman match in a draw is lame. Especially when it was tied for the last what 10 min? The entire match was tied other than like 17 total minutes? 

If you were booking backwards, and you wanted to do the MJF wins with Bryan's move (which isnt some crazy original ending either) in Sudden Death, then there are much more exciting, and creative ways to get to that point.

Very simply, you could have had MJF scheme his way to being up a few falls, then the last 20-15-10 min are a race against the clock for Bryan to make up the ground. you could have him putting EVERYTHING into getting 2 more submissions as the clock winds down, and then he has nothing left for OT. As Bryan is trying every submission he knows to get MJF to tap twice in a short period and getting it with seconds to spare (I dont necessarily mean literally seconds) Which that is what allows Max to synch in the LaBell Lock.

Also the fact that we got the TKO arm drop spot, but then we make Bryan Tap? Especially how many times we have had Mox and Bryan get the Ref stoppage without even checking the arm? It was some of the most muted we have ever heard a PPV crowd after the finish to a Main Event. 

It was good, they did the job well, but in no way was this some kind of all timer.

 

Thematic consistency has never been a strength of Tony's booking.  Occasionally he backs into a few successes, but it happens with such infrequency I have to believe that those instances were purely serendipity and accidental - and possibly the product of an agent taking some liberties with Tony's booking to arrive at the same end-result.

What we ended up left with was what felt like Tony wanting to have his cake and eat it too; he wanted Max to go over be able to claim that he was the superior wrestler, while still protecting Bryan (and I'm sorry, but unless you're planning a relatively immediate return match - and Tony has pretty much made it clear he doesn't like lengthy feuds - you don't worry about "protecting" a challenger against your tippy-top champion).  A guy lost to the champion, more often than not that's what's supposed to happen since the champion is a champion for a reason, assumedly.  Also, Tony had built in the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card for this match from the promotions inception, except that he never really stuck to that consistently because either he didn't know how to creatively book that or certain people who had his ear weren't willing to do the jobs necessary to establish it as a premise - that being to more simulate actual sport than "Sports Entertainment."  How many times in MMA have we seen champions or thoroughbred challengers just get caught or slip up and put themselves in a situation that they shouldn't be in but where any reasonably-trained fighter should know how to seize the advantage from?  We know Bryan has.  We also know Bryan's not worried about putting guys over if it helps move them along the proverbial cribbage board.  Bryan probably could have come up with way of working a "whoops" moment that cost him in the end.

But the problem with that is that such a set up requires the booker to want to and intend to do a return match at least within the next 2-3 supercard's worth of time... and it also isn't helped when you've booked such a convoluted path for the guy that's doing the job to get the title shot in the first place.  And this is really my biggest issue with Tony's booking and it's visible all over the cards - because he doesn't like longer feuds where you actually build drama that gives you a reason to have/need a gimmick match for resolution or a gauntlet storyline or whathaveyou, he just throws those things out there to try to produce the drama and while it's not traditional hot-shotting, it's akin to it.  And it comes across like a guy booking for his e-fed trying to impress all his friends by giving them all the bells and whistles and condiments without a whole lot of food on the actual table.  And trust me when I say I know what that's like because I actually used to write in a number of e-feds back in the late 90's and early 00's - and effectively in the heyday of the Attitude/Ruthless Aggression eras and the original ECW.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

Sounds like Omega is headed back to singles. Hell yeah

Well, we can pretty much guarantee this is why Tony made a point of protecting (to a certain degree) Bryan in that title match.  Shame, because Bryan actually has the kind of stroke that he could get away (to the point where Tony would forgive him/allow it) with mocking Kenny's ridiculous promo delivery - I'm not sorry, it's so affected it's dumb.  And he's one of only about 3 or 4 guys in the company that both could get away with it and might actually be believable doing it (and with Punk likely gone, that is definitely more on the 3 side than the 4).  So I guess I have to hope for a Kenny/MJF program at some point, because as it gets closer and closer to 2024, I can see Max (whether he's allowed to or not) breaking the 4th wall more and more and taking liberties with outright ignoring kayfabe when promo'ing on either Kenny or the Jacksons.  The only other ones I could see with the cachet to get away with it would be Mox and Jericho, and Jericho's not doing it - because he would have done already when they actually had a program.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Dr LBC said:

Well, we can pretty much guarantee this is why Tony made a point of protecting (to a certain degree) Bryan in that title match.  Shame, because Bryan actually has the kind of stroke that he could get away (to the point where Tony would forgive him/allow it) with mocking Kenny's ridiculous promo delivery - I'm not sorry, it's so affected it's dumb.  And he's one of only about 3 or 4 guys in the company that both could get away with it and might actually be believable doing it (and with Punk likely gone, that is definitely more on the 3 side than the 4).  So I guess I have to hope for a Kenny/MJF program at some point, because as it gets closer and closer to 2024, I can see Max (whether he's allowed to or not) breaking the 4th wall more and more and taking liberties with outright ignoring kayfabe when promo'ing on either Kenny or the Jacksons.  The only other ones I could see with the cachet to get away with it would be Mox and Jericho, and Jericho's not doing it - because he would have done already when they actually had a program.

I hope MJF/Kenny happens at some point but it seems as though MJF has made a point not to talk about him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The internet is really blowing up about that kid getting water tossed on him. I don't think it was tequila, they were pouring liquor into smaller glasses and the kid was having a blast all night, before and after. He was using an acclaimed scissor foamhand to flip MJF off afterwards, the mom was laughing. 

 

It's very weird to read about this stuff on the internet and see all the details wrong. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/20/2023 at 2:03 AM, Jeezla said:

Anyone playing WWE 2k23? If so, how you liking it? Is it noticeably better than '22 or more like Madden type "improvement" where they basically just updated the rosters?

just an FYI, there's a video game section on the forum, you may have more success with that question there

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/17/2023 at 2:21 PM, Edge said:

Dynamite was very good 

I am not trying to be combative here, but Im honestly asking, Was it? Was it any better than the last... pick your number of weeks of Dynamite? Id argue no, its just the same level of treading water that weve seen for months now. With some super high matches (Trios Main Event) and really good MJF Promos, mixed among too much predictable, to bad, to even worse... boring stuff 

 

  • MJFs Re-Bar Mitzvah was a good segment, almost all of his segments are good. And as exciting as the proposition of a 4-Way for the Title among the Pillars, it mostly reminded me that we should be getting individual programs with each of these guys vs MJF in his expected year long reign. Instead we are going to rush these. It also showed that those 3 other Pillars arent as far along as Id hoped they would be
  • It was great to see Stu back, and that it seems like the Dark order is going to be a real thing again (still think it would work better with RoH) and these groups are always going to give you a good (albeit predictable, bordering on complacent at this point) match on TV. Really wish they wouldnt halfass this  BCC Heel Turn, I dont care enough about Yuta and Claudio being heels, and Mox is just bordering on it, just being a weirdo/jerk and not a full heel. Oh well, its what I expect out of them.
  • The Jade/Valkyrie stuff was clunky at best. It was also completely spoiled for the vast majority of the AEW viewership. Is this better than the squash of the week for Jade? Sure, but is it all that much better than when she went up against Nyla Rose? TBD
  • I love Orange Cassidy just as much as anyone (probably more than anyone around here), and the Jarrett/Lethal faction is a nice reliable heel group you can keep using all over the place, but we are just treading water at this point with the AAC International Championship. OC puts on entertaining matches, and enough of a verity of them to warrant this long title reign, but he hasnt had an actual feud this entire time, just a string of good-very good matches. Just such a missed opportunity
  • So I guess were really trying to do this "Outcasts" thing? Its just not working, and its just muddying up the AEW/RoH rosters even more on the Womens side now. At this point, they should only be building them up to make a new star that will tear them down (...Jade)
  • Everyone knew the Main Event would be a banger, but I have to ask, WHY was it a 3 way? In Kayfabe, why would the House of Black (even as badass/dominant as they are going to look) put themselves in this match? The draw of this match, in Montreal, was Omega/Jericho. So why not just make the Main Event the Trios #1 Contender match. HoB can still be the specter hanging over the match, threatening both sides throughout the week and even at the show. Heck, even have them go lights out, appear in the ring, and then obliterate both the JAS and Elite. Finish the night a No Contest with the Dominant House of Black standing tall with their belts, showing no one is on their level right now. That's just a nit pick, but its stuff like that, which AEW never really does, that limits their story telling.

There are some really good things in there, but we just keep going back to the well on too much of the same stuff. Its too easy for Tony to stick with the familiar and the safe (yes, safe, even if we dress it up with blood) rather than take some chances, and not continue to appease certain Wrestlers (and Im actually not talking about the Bucks this time)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/17/2023 at 2:21 PM, Edge said:

for the next episode Tony Khan just announced an absolute banger of a match.

It should be a great watch, no doubt. Especially for those of us (Im assuming like me and you) that actually know who Vikingo is. But it goes back to, does this draw a single new eye to the product? Hard to say that it will

If AEW is just going to be a string of fun-to-great matches, even "dream matches" as they are touting this one to be, ok I guess we just need to accept is a the new age Tape Traders outlet. But you can see they just have so much more to offer as a whole Wrestling product

Ive heard the stuff about Vikongo's schedule and this may be the only time they cold get him, and Ok thats fine for this instance. But it has been the pattern of AEW to do this, so it leaves everyone skeptical.

Like how do you miss the opportunity to tie in all the new faces that went up again Danielson in the MJF run up to Max being the one with the deep pockets, bringing them in to take down Bryan? Its so simple to make these work in kayfabe, and Tony just seems either to simple or actively working against it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

It should be a great watch, no doubt. Especially for those of us (Im assuming like me and you) that actually know who Vikingo is. But it goes back to, does this draw a single new eye to the product? Hard to say that it will

If AEW is just going to be a string of fun-to-great matches, even "dream matches" as they are touting this one to be, ok I guess we just need to accept is a the new age Tape Traders outlet. But you can see they just have so much more to offer as a whole Wrestling product

Ive heard the stuff about Vikongo's schedule and this may be the only time they cold get him, and Ok thats fine for this instance. But it has been the pattern of AEW to do this, so it leaves everyone skeptical.

Like how do you miss the opportunity to tie in all the new faces that went up again Danielson in the MJF run up to Max being the one with the deep pockets, bringing them in to take down Bryan? Its so simple to make these work in kayfabe, and Tony just seems either to simple or actively working against it.

You know that you and I have been on the same page for roughly the last couple months, I just haven't always been the best at getting my points across without coming off adversarial.

I think we can both agree the crux of the issue is Tony; he thinks he's Heyman (or at least he wants to be) but he's more so something of a cross between Vince Russo and Jim Herd.  Don't get me wrong, he's got his enablers - certain talent on the roster who will yes-man him and pat him on the back in order to keep their spot on the card, Uncle Dave, etc.  But the thing is, Heyman actually had experience before running ECW - as a booker/promoter came up under Eddie Gilbert, but he was also picking Jim Ross' brain since their time as announcers in Crockett Era WCW.   Tony ran an e-fed.

Tony doesn't strike me as someone that has a particular long attention span.  And he doesn't really read a room as well as he thinks he does - especially for all we hear about him "hearing what the fans want and giving it to them."  Look no further than the way Sammy's been handled - and yes, I realize some of SG's backstage misadventures may be a contributing factor, but that the sort of thing that even in Twilight WCW days, if a locker room vet were given the go-ahead by upper management to do it, said vet could have straightened Sammy onto the straight and narrow damn quick.  Meanwhile, he's a babyface and over because of his work on the indies... so let's put him with Jericho, but then Jericho doesn't want to let him go, so when Jericho goes heel (and tries to run his stable as still the "cool heels," because Chris has the worst case of the Hogans I've seen in a long while) Sammy is then swung heel.  Cool, fine.  Sammy's got the look of that annoying kid on the playground with the very punch-able face, that can work as a heel - but that guy isn't cool.  And then Sammy cuts effectively the best babyface promo I've heard him cut in the Four Pillars/Re-BarMitzvah segment, except he also simultaneously points out the continuity issue with him even being part of that promo... he's been Chris Jericho's bump monkey for more than a year now (and he's effectively interchangeable with Daniel Garcia who gets more screen/mic time than Sammy at this point); his strata isn't anywhere near the World Title level.  And this in a company that came out saying they were going to emulate real sports where wins and losses matter... and then as soon as they could implemented Elevation and Dark so that they could pad those records, but less than half their TV audience actually watched those programs so they just had to take it on faith that the results were being accounted properly.  This is legitimately only a step removed from Goldberg picking up 7-10 wins in his streak a week because of assumed house show matches he may or may not have actually worked.

The best positioned coming out of that promo was Darby (and my god, a babyface promo that actually put the company over while still getting himself over, what a novel concept), but Darby (who I'm sure will have moments of brilliance) will also get lost in the shuffle in an unnecessary fourway (Tony and his obsession with multi-man matches has turned into Teddy Long, Smackdown GM).  And, I'm sorry, I like the guy's story, he's a good worker, but I don't believe a damn thing Jungle Boy says.  His mic work is dry toast.

Normally, coming out of a feud with someone of the strata of a Chris Jericho, one would think that OK that has served to elevate a guy like Ricky Starks to a main event level capable of at least being given a feud with the World Champion, even if it's pretty clear as day that Max is getting a lengthy run with the belt, but Face Ricky is great as a chaser.  Except that you already sacrificed that "he earns a WC shot and loses by nefarious means" instance as a sort of aside in the lead-up to MJF/Danielson.

Outside of Wardlow - who they've kayfabe injured and now tied to QT for the foreseeable future) and Darby they don't have a main event caliber babyface (and you already addressed why Orange shouldn't - and I've come around on the character, but I'd also argue the nature of his character is exactly why he should never be a World Title option) who they haven't already frivolously run Max against. And people may argue that faces and heels don't matter (which, I'm sorry, I still think is an asinine position), but when your tippy-top champion is very clearly a heel and makes no bones about it, you can't just run "cool guy heels" against him and think both are going to be able to maintain heat.  I'd kind of hoped that a returning Adam Cole could eventually be that guy, but I'm losing hope with each passing month that we don't see him even get in the ring.

There's also booking with guys on their (call it what it is, bloated) roster that are barely getting used that could sensibly get them out of this hole, but Tony doesn't want to do it, for whatever reason, because Tony doesn't really develop talent, instead just kind of latches onto characters.  You want a logical person to take the title down the line off Max who could both be a minted star off that win and who has storyline reason to get comeuppance on MJF?  No, I'm not talking about Wardlow (who it may be eventually, if we're being honest).  Brian Pillman Jr.  He's in that "not ready right now" boat, but if Tony could manage to understand the concept of a slow burn: Build the guy up several months of actual TV wins, give him the Dustin Rhodes rub - mentor-ish capacity the same way Sting was to Darby, but you've got with more legitimate real world bona fides - while also giving Max someone to shine up (or have shined up by a group of hired goons) when you're building toward a climax, and don't stick a mid-card title on him to give him credibility, give him something of some meaning to him while also extracting some meaning from something you built up before that you got little payout from (the Owen Hart memorial tournament).  And he and Max already have chemistry together from previous work both in AEW and outside it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Dr LBC said:

You know that you and I have been on the same page for roughly the last couple months, I just haven't always been the best at getting my points across without coming off adversarial.

The Rock Applause GIF

Your whole post, all of it, is spot on. 

We definitely differ here and there of things we would change/fix at the micro level, but the overall thoughts and desires for AEW I am in lock step with you.

Its starting to get really frustrating to see what could be a great Wrestling Company turn into, well what it is right now, a crappy copy of things we all grew up on. Which can be great as the spice/flavor, but when its always the meat at potatoes (especially the TV Dinner version) it almost gets disheartening at times.

They've never really had an issue with the matches being put on, they legitimately have some of the best in the world at that. But their story telling, which is just as important, if not more so, just leaves so much to be desired. And frankly, Im not sure who is out there that can wrangle Tony and fix this. Which makes me sad

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...