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2020 Draft Talk


swede700

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2 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

The biggest thing is how hard it is to get enough help around these guys when the QB isn't on a rookie contract. Kirk is a "franchise QB" depending on your definition, but he needs a lot of help around him. That's fine, but when he is taking up 15% of the salary cap it's hard to fully build out a roster that's good enough to help a guy like Kirk win a super bowl. 

At some point the bubble is going to pop and teams are going to have to stop paying QB's that don't significantly elevate the talent around them like they are top 5 QB's. Or at least I hope that is the case. I think Kirk is a good enough QB to make the playoffs with, but unless he signs for significantly less money, I don't think we can give him all the help he needs to win a championship. 

He would easily have enough help if they could have hit on some draft picks. Elflein is failing miserably as a 3rd rounder, Bradbury was a 1st rounder and NEEDS to improve, Reiff is getting paid 13m/season and is very average.  Hell, look at Treadwell and Hughes also and very underwhelming 1st rounders. Rick missing on high draft picks in recent years isn’t Cousins’ fault. He’s the 7th highest paid QB (IIRC) and is performing right around the 7th best QB in the league. Cousins doesn’t need any more help around him than the next guy. His OL just needs to be average or better, with time in the pocket he is a phenomenal QB. 
 

The idea that w/o Cousins contract we would have some sort of stacked roster is blasphemous.  Rick needs to draft better, period. Relying on having a rookie QB contract is going to be a short-term fix that won’t help us in the long run. 

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9 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

He would easily have enough help if they could have hit on some draft picks. Elflein is failing miserably as a 3rd rounder, Bradbury was a 1st rounder and NEEDS to improve, Reiff is getting paid 13m/season and is very average.  Hell, look at Treadwell and Hughes also and very underwhelming 1st rounders. Rick missing on high draft picks in recent years isn’t Cousins’ fault. He’s the 7th highest paid QB (IIRC) and is performing right around the 7th best QB in the league. Cousins doesn’t need any more help around him than the next guy. His OL just needs to be average or better, with time in the pocket he is a phenomenal QB. 
 

The idea that w/o Cousins contract we would have some sort of stacked roster is blasphemous.  Rick needs to draft better, period. Relying on having a rookie QB contract is going to be a short-term fix that won’t help us in the long run. 

All fair points! I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree because we have differing opinions on Cousins. I don't think I see a scenario where Kirk Cousins wins a super bowl with the Vikings in the next 3 years, so I would rather take another swing at the QB position. I understand why people think differently from that, and it may just be that being a Minnesota sports fan for so long has turned me into a fantastic pessimist. I would love to be proven wrong.

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7 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

All fair points! I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree because we have differing opinions on Cousins. I don't think I see a scenario where Kirk Cousins wins a super bowl with the Vikings in the next 3 years, so I would rather take another swing at the QB position. I understand why people think differently from that, and it may just be that being a Minnesota sports fan for so long has turned me into a fantastic pessimist. I would love to be proven wrong.

That’s fair enough, I felt kind of the same way until that New Orleans playoff game. 
 

Cousins earned my full support that day.  That big throw to Thielen in OT with the game on the line was all I needed to see. He put the icing on the cake with the clutch TD to Rudolph.  

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38 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

He would easily have enough help if they could have hit on some draft picks. Elflein is failing miserably as a 3rd rounder, Bradbury was a 1st rounder and NEEDS to improve, Reiff is getting paid 13m/season and is very average.  Hell, look at Treadwell and Hughes also and very underwhelming 1st rounders. Rick missing on high draft picks in recent years isn’t Cousins’ fault. He’s the 7th highest paid QB (IIRC) and is performing right around the 7th best QB in the league. Cousins doesn’t need any more help around him than the next guy. His OL just needs to be average or better, with time in the pocket he is a phenomenal QB. 
 

The idea that w/o Cousins contract we would have some sort of stacked roster is blasphemous.  Rick needs to draft better, period. Relying on having a rookie QB contract is going to be a short-term fix that won’t help us in the long run. 

Huh?  How do you figure that?  lol

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1 hour ago, Duff Man said:

What makes you think Tua can win “without everything being perfect around him” — didn’t he play for Alabama?

Cousins is a franchise QB and they need to continue to build around him.  

It's his game that makes me think that.  Have you seen him play?  I've seen Cousins play quite a bit and I'm not all that impressed that he is a "franchise QB".  He's on par with Ryan Tannehill, Andy Dalton, Derek Carr, Ryan Fitzpatrick, guys like that.  Not terrible but nothing to be excited about.  He certainly makes franchise QB money though.

The thing about most Cousins supporters is they seem to think if Cousins leaves, the Vikings won't have a QB anymore.  Cousins' production would not be hard to duplicate.  His wins would not be hard to duplicate.  He's Alex Smith.  I'm kinda tired of the Vikings settling for game managers while the up and coming teams draft QBs that have a shot at being the next generation of winners.  Of course, with Spielman doing the picking, I'm not real confident we would land the right guy, but even a blind squirrel gets a nut every once in a while, right?  If we hit on a first round center, maybe Cousins will get sacked a little less and maybe toss a couple more TDs.  If we hit on a first round QB, the franchise could be completely changed.

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1 hour ago, Hyperborean said:

It's his game that makes me think that.  Have you seen him play?  I've seen Cousins play quite a bit and I'm not all that impressed that he is a "franchise QB".  He's on par with Ryan Tannehill, Andy Dalton, Derek Carr, Ryan Fitzpatrick, guys like that.  Not terrible but nothing to be excited about.  He certainly makes franchise QB money though.

The thing about most Cousins supporters is they seem to think if Cousins leaves, the Vikings won't have a QB anymore.  Cousins' production would not be hard to duplicate.  His wins would not be hard to duplicate.  He's Alex Smith.  I'm kinda tired of the Vikings settling for game managers while the up and coming teams draft QBs that have a shot at being the next generation of winners.  Of course, with Spielman doing the picking, I'm not real confident we would land the right guy, but even a blind squirrel gets a nut every once in a while, right?  If we hit on a first round center, maybe Cousins will get sacked a little less and maybe toss a couple more TDs.  If we hit on a first round QB, the franchise could be completely changed.

Tua played for the powerhouse of CFB. Remind us all of how many Alabama QBs (who looked great in college) have been good in the NFL?  I think he’s a good player, but giving up the farm for him is not the answer. 
 

Tannehill, Dalton, Carr, and Fitzpatrick aren’t in the same league as Cousins. Strongly disagree with you there.  Cousins production WOULD be hard for us to duplicate, just look at our history with QBs in the past 2 decades. We haven’t had a franchise QB since Culpepper if you exclude Favre’s one miracle year.  26 TDs and 6 INTs (2 of those INTs off of Diggs’ hands) are very impressive numbers. 
 

Cousins isn’t the reason we didn’t win the SB this season, he played pretty damn well actually. I’d say poor drafting at the top of drafts in recent years has been our main problem. We got destroyed in the trenches against SF. 
 

Tua isn’t going to come in and suddenly make our OL a top-half of the league unit, OK?  He’s not going to create a pass rush from our 3T and NT. Spielman needs to draft better. 

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I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but you are painting an awfully rosy picture of what Cousins has done in his time here. He makes boneheaded or cowardly decisions in crunch time and has cost them opportunities to win games.

I agree that it would be difficult to match his production, but I don't think that is necessarily mutually exclusive to having a better all around team. Especially if it's true that he wants an even bigger deal in an extension situation.

Edited by JDBrocks
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4 minutes ago, VikeManDan said:

He definitely needs a better hit rate on 1st rounders.

He hasn’t hit on one in four years. That’s awful. Trae Waynes was the last good first round pick, but even that is up for debate given that most are probably somewhat disappointed with his return given that he was a top 11 pick. 

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4 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

He hasn’t hit on one in four years. That’s awful. Trae Waynes was the last good first round pick, but even that is up for debate given that most are probably somewhat disappointed with his return given that he was a top 11 pick. 

Jury is still out on Bradbury and this is a big year for Hughes. There is still a little hope.

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4 minutes ago, VikeManDan said:

Jury is still out on Bradbury and this is a big year for Hughes. There is still a little hope.

I agree, there is still hope. But if after three years you’re still waiting on a player to emerge that player is either bad or you’re not drafting correctly to allow players to see the field. In Hughes case, I am not sure if he’s good but he was certainly a bad pick from the standpoint of not getting any return. Imagine if that pick was used on a starting OL or DL. The team would be in a better position. While we’re losing some CBs this offseason and it appears he should finally get a chance, he still hasn’t answered any questions about his ability. Hill has arguably looked like the better player.

it is too soon to write off Bradbury but he wasn’t much better than the player he was replacing in Elflein.

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1 minute ago, vikingsrule said:

But if after three years you’re still waiting on a player to emerge that player is either bad or you’re not drafting correctly to allow players to see the field. In Hughes case, I am not sure if he’s good but he was certainly a bad pick from the standpoint of not getting any return.

I agree as this was my main gripe with the Hughes selection all along. He was a luxury pick at the time.

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11 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but you are painting an awfully rosy picture of what Cousins has done in his time here. He makes boneheaded or cowardly decisions in crunch time and has cost them opportunities to win games.

I agree that it would be difficult to match his production, but I don't think that is necessarily mutually exclusive to having a better all around team. Especially if it's true that he wants an even bigger deal in an extension situation.

How much of the "cowardly" is his coach being conservative, and asking his QB not to make mistakes, do you think? I'm guessing that's a definite part....

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1 minute ago, PrplChilPill said:

How much of the "cowardly" is his coach being conservative, and asking his QB not to make mistakes, do you think? I'm guessing that's a definite part....

A lot of what I was referring to was opting not to go downfield on wide open plays. I highly doubt that Zimmer is discouraging those throws.

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