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Bobby816

2020 Draft Prospects

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19 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

Antonio Gandy-Golden is a guy to really OT attention in these upcoming workouts. On film he looks incredible. It’s his level of competition that’s been questioned. How we does in these drills leading up to the draft can make a big difference for him. Personally the skill set I see... I’d love to grab him with one of our 3rds. There’s others I might like more in that area... but he might have the highest upside.

Yeah, I want him but I think if he runs a fast 40time, he's going in the late 1st or 2nd. 

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17 hours ago, rickyt31 said:

Yeah, I want him but I think if he runs a fast 40time, he's going in the late 1st or 2nd. 

I dont think he goes nearly that high. I think after the combine the movers up will be Ruggs, Reagor, Hamler and Aiyuk (fast and agile runners). With maybe Higgins and Shenault falling down. I dont see the likes of AGG passing any of these guys, just bc he's raw. Has a huge ceiling though. I mean if a team is looking for a WR like him there's proven guys at a higher level than him that are less of a risk like Higgins, Mims, Pittman, Surratt. This is all with leaving Jefferson out of the talk who I can see going late Round 1 early Round 2. This all being said I cant see all of... Jeudy, Lamb, Ruggs, Jefferson, Reagor, Higgins, Hamler, Aiyuk, Shenault and Mims all gone by 48 (at least I hope not). And I'd be happy with any of those guys at 48 at this stage.

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AGG definitely isn't a first round or high material on night 2.   I feel like he belongs to a slow developing offense like Coryell offense or Big Ben's offense.   Having him in Gase's system is a mistake.  Talented or not.

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I’ve been trying to play devil’s advocate by comparing prospects I really love to another former player’s with a similar profiles that didn’t pan out. I think it’s a good exercise to try and get you to go back and reevaluate a player without bias. One of them is Van Jefferson - Brian Robiskie. Drafted in 2009, he too was a long-time NFL coaches son, had the same size/body type, not very explosive but deceptive athleticism, high football IQ and all around good prospect who lacked production at OSU which many blamed on the scheme. Literally a coaches dream in the room and by all accounts a great worker, humble with the media, and excellent teammate. He ended up getting drafted 36th overall with the Browns and was a colossal bust. 

In going back and watching the limited I could of Brian, and comparing it to Van, The biggest difference between these guys, and why I now want Van even more. When you watched Brian, it seemed like he was a man playing against boys. He had his opponent beat mentally because he understood what was going on and he knew how to run all the routes, but was used mostly on controlled underneath routes while lining up at the X. But if you watch closely, he really lacked acceleration out of his breaks, had good footwork but lacked pop and quickness in his feet, was not very sudden in and out of his breaks. You could see it in the angles he took it when running routes and how he approached getting off the line. He pretty much won with his mind and his ability to overpower at the college level. It should have been more apparent, but when he went to the combine and blew up the tests, immediately the NFL got behind him as being a player who had the athletic ability, IQ, and work ethic to learn how to get better off the line from the waists down. Wrong. Much like speed, feet are not coachable. Some players coming out of college have natural foot quickness but are sloppy, whereas guys like Robiskie had average foot quickness (if that) but had already maximized it. Obviously scheme and usage come into play, but I believe Robiskie failed in the NFL largely because he couldn’t get much stronger. He truly had been “maxed out”. He needed to be a Power Forward-like X receiver- a possession guy that was going to beat the press with upper body strength and make contested catches. It just didn’t work out.

Van is a different player. If you read a scouting report, everything looks the same on the surface. But the biggest difference is that foot speed and playing style. Van is a guy who has elite foot quickness. It’s truly uncanny to watch. He did win in college by bullying guys every now and again, but that won’t happen in the NFL. Unlike Robiskie, who was exclusively an X, Van lined up all over, frequently in the slot, because of his route running ability and their QB deficiencies in getting the ball down field. There’s always the possibility he’s maxed out athletically given his age (24), but one thing I’m sure about: he’s entering the NFL with fantastic footwork, but more importantly top-notch foot speed, and that quality will be something that he’ll be able to build off of for a long time. I’d bet that Van will not test nearly as well as Brian did in agility drills, but one thing is for sure: their foot speed, suddenness, and agility abilities are not comparable. Everything else (hand-eye coordination, character, IQ, contested catching) is the same, but Van wins with both his technique AND god given ability, not just a reliance on technique.  
 

In summary: winning off the line is a huge part of this offense, and in general, foot speed is paramount to being successful in the NFL. I came away liking Van more than I did before. He’s not going to overpower anyone at the NFL level, but has everything a top notch receiver in this league needs to be very successful—including a competitive chip. I’ve bumped him up to my 8th overall receiver, and I fear he’ll go somewhere in the 2nd round before we have a chance to nab him in the 3rd. I really hope I’m wrong and he’s playing on the NYJ next year, but I’m not sure the Eagles/Vikings/Packers would pass him up. He’s exactly what they’re looking for in WR prospects.

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17 hours ago, jetskid007 said:

I’ve been trying to play devil’s advocate by comparing prospects I really love to another former player’s with a similar profiles that didn’t pan out. I think it’s a good exercise to try and get you to go back and reevaluate a player without bias. One of them is Van Jefferson - Brian Robiskie. Drafted in 2009, he too was a long-time NFL coaches son, had the same size/body type, not very explosive but deceptive athleticism, high football IQ and all around good prospect who lacked production at OSU which many blamed on the scheme. Literally a coaches dream in the room and by all accounts a great worker, humble with the media, and excellent teammate. He ended up getting drafted 36th overall with the Browns and was a colossal bust. 

In going back and watching the limited I could of Brian, and comparing it to Van, The biggest difference between these guys, and why I now want Van even more. When you watched Brian, it seemed like he was a man playing against boys. He had his opponent beat mentally because he understood what was going on and he knew how to run all the routes, but was used mostly on controlled underneath routes while lining up at the X. But if you watch closely, he really lacked acceleration out of his breaks, had good footwork but lacked pop and quickness in his feet, was not very sudden in and out of his breaks. You could see it in the angles he took it when running routes and how he approached getting off the line. He pretty much won with his mind and his ability to overpower at the college level. It should have been more apparent, but when he went to the combine and blew up the tests, immediately the NFL got behind him as being a player who had the athletic ability, IQ, and work ethic to learn how to get better off the line from the waists down. Wrong. Much like speed, feet are not coachable. Some players coming out of college have natural foot quickness but are sloppy, whereas guys like Robiskie had average foot quickness (if that) but had already maximized it. Obviously scheme and usage come into play, but I believe Robiskie failed in the NFL largely because he couldn’t get much stronger. He truly had been “maxed out”. He needed to be a Power Forward-like X receiver- a possession guy that was going to beat the press with upper body strength and make contested catches. It just didn’t work out.

Van is a different player. If you read a scouting report, everything looks the same on the surface. But the biggest difference is that foot speed and playing style. Van is a guy who has elite foot quickness. It’s truly uncanny to watch. He did win in college by bullying guys every now and again, but that won’t happen in the NFL. Unlike Robiskie, who was exclusively an X, Van lined up all over, frequently in the slot, because of his route running ability and their QB deficiencies in getting the ball down field. There’s always the possibility he’s maxed out athletically given his age (24), but one thing I’m sure about: he’s entering the NFL with fantastic footwork, but more importantly top-notch foot speed, and that quality will be something that he’ll be able to build off of for a long time. I’d bet that Van will not test nearly as well as Brian did in agility drills, but one thing is for sure: their foot speed, suddenness, and agility abilities are not comparable. Everything else (hand-eye coordination, character, IQ, contested catching) is the same, but Van wins with both his technique AND god given ability, not just a reliance on technique.  
 

In summary: winning off the line is a huge part of this offense, and in general, foot speed is paramount to being successful in the NFL. I came away liking Van more than I did before. He’s not going to overpower anyone at the NFL level, but has everything a top notch receiver in this league needs to be very successful—including a competitive chip. I’ve bumped him up to my 8th overall receiver, and I fear he’ll go somewhere in the 2nd round before we have a chance to nab him in the 3rd. I really hope I’m wrong and he’s playing on the NYJ next year, but I’m not sure the Eagles/Vikings/Packers would pass him up. He’s exactly what they’re looking for in WR prospects.

Agreed. And you touched on my biggest concerns on him. I'm just not as high on him as you are (and I like Van). For me the biggest thing for me that's a negative for him is his age and production. For comparison he's pretty much the same age at Chris Godwin who's been in the league for 2 years producing at a high level, where as Van has produces moderately in college in that time frame. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a good skill set. But it does mean for whatever reason (QB, scheme, whatever) he's not producing. Which cant just get pushed to the side. Guys like Jerry Jeudy and CD Lamb are nearly a whole 3 years younger for him. Imagine the players they'll be in 3 years where Van will not even have gotten an NFL snap.

 

You point to this point all the time with Darnold being so young. So it cant just only apply at QB. It applies everywhere. And Van falls on the bad side of this. He's going to be 24 come the next NFL season when these WRs will all just be turning 21 (a whole 3 years younger and 3 years of development)... Jeudy, Lamb, Ruggs, Higgins, Jefferson, Reagor, Hamler, Shenault... just to name a few.

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5 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

You point to this point all the time with Darnold being so young. So it cant just only apply at QB. It applies everywhere. And Van falls on the bad side of this. He's going to be 24 come the next NFL season when these WRs will all just be turning 21 (a whole 3 years younger and 3 years of development)... Jeudy, Lamb, Ruggs, Higgins, Jefferson, Reagor, Hamler, Shenault... just to name a few.

Much different for a QB IMO. 

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7 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

Much different for a QB IMO. 

I think its different for a QB as well. But its still 3 years of development. That's for any position. This example is just at WR.

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Just now, Bobby816 said:

I think its different for a QB as well. But its still 3 years of development. That's for any position. This example is just at WR.

I don’t look at it that way, especially for a player that is fairly advanced mentally. If anything, the primary disadvantage to him will be his career length.

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If I were running this team, all our day 1 and 2 picks would be dedicated to the offense. So much talent at OL/WR/RB. Antonio Gibson, Anthony McFarland, and Javon Leake are really intriguing fits

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17 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

If I were running this team, all our day 1 and 2 picks would be dedicated to the offense. So much talent at OL/WR/RB. Antonio Gibson, Anthony McFarland, and Javon Leake are really intriguing fits

And the congregation all said... AMEN!!! 

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2 hours ago, jetskid007 said:

If I were running this team, all our day 1 and 2 picks would be dedicated to the offense. So much talent at OL/WR/RB. Antonio Gibson, Anthony McFarland, and Javon Leake are really intriguing fits

SOB.  Why must you lobby those kids that much?   It would wreck the top plan for OL. >:(

Baylor's JaMycal Hasty is currently my last hope as skill sleeper for day 3 or UDFA. Don't you dare to hype him up.

 

I liked Darrell Henderson and Tony Pollard (mostly) for last draft.  Both ran 4.5 avg.  Since 49ers went to Super Bowl Deebo Samuel exposed more for NFL circles so that could become problematic if more NFL people like the way Deebo played.  Deebo also ran 4.5 avg and went to top 5 in 2nd round of last draft.  Imagine that if Gibson manages to run sub 4.4 for this combine.  That is why I am looking at Kentucky's Lynn Bowden Jr. and Navy's Malcolm Perry as a potential mid round jack of all trades player for Jets to go with Baylor's Hasty.

 

Please start to hype up Terence Steele of Texas Tech for 2nd round just in case if Jets don't select a natural LT in 1st.  I begin to worry about Browns' possibility to land top RT in 1st and last high level LT in 2nd.:(

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14 hours ago, JetsandI said:

SOB.  Why must you lobby those kids that much?   It would wreck the top plan for OL. >:(

Baylor's JaMycal Hasty is currently my last hope as skill sleeper for day 3 or UDFA. Don't you dare to hype him up.

 

I liked Darrell Henderson and Tony Pollard (mostly) for last draft.  Both ran 4.5 avg.  Since 49ers went to Super Bowl Deebo Samuel exposed more for NFL circles so that could become problematic if more NFL people like the way Deebo played.  Deebo also ran 4.5 avg and went to top 5 in 2nd round of last draft.  Imagine that if Gibson manages to run sub 4.4 for this combine.  That is why I am looking at Kentucky's Lynn Bowden Jr. and Navy's Malcolm Perry as a potential mid round jack of all trades player for Jets to go with Baylor's Hasty.

 

Please start to hype up Terence Steele of Texas Tech for 2nd round just in case if Jets don't select a natural LT in 1st.  I begin to worry about Browns' possibility to land top RT in 1st and last high level LT in 2nd.:(

As a TTU alum and fan... trust me we don’t want Steele unless it’s in the very late rounds.

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From Dane Brugler regarding the OL class for those of you who aren’t subscribed to The Athletic: 

Quote

 

The overall depth of this offensive tackle class is mediocre, but it is the best collection of young talent in the early rounds that the NFL has seen in recent memory... I took some heat last fall when I put Jedrick Wills at No. 1 in my offensive tackle rankings, but that is what the tape told me, and I continue to stand by that. But the beauty of this tackle class is the volume of high-level talent at the top. Several NFL scouts prefer the intriguing ceiling of Mekhi Becton. Some lean towards Tristan Wirfs while others think he needs to move inside to guard.

 

Again, while I am a faithful advocate of drafting BPA, especially in round 1, this year is different specifically when speaking of OT vs. WR. Obviously there’s tons of data that one can point to suggesting the importance of OL>WR, but usually I’d still say draft the best player if it came down to it. What makes this class unique is that it’s one of the best top-heavy crops of OTs I’ve seen in a long time (yet not so great in terms of depth) while being the deepest WR of my lifetime, possibly ever. Like, I really believe Josh Jones would be a top 15 pick in most drafts yet he’s often ranked the 5th best OL prospect. This is where resource allocation comes to play. If it came down to it, yes, I’d take the 4th or 5th rated OT at 11 over Jeudy and Lamb because I know that there will be extremely good WR prospects littered throughout the rest of the draft. Hell, let's say hypothetically speaking that the Jets have top 30 rankings on Jeudy/Lamb/Ruggs/Shenault/Jefferson/Auyik/Higgins/Reagor (order taken from the draft network but also extremely realistic) - there is a legitimate shot at one of those guys, if not multiple, are there in round 2, whereas the OT/OL market will have severely began to thin by that point... there may not even be an OL they feel that strongly about, let alone being a top 50 player. And even if you take that calculated risk and you’re not crazy about the WR available at 48, guess what? There are going to be day 1 starters at WR that fall to the 3rd, maybe even the 4th round! This draft is teed up for Douglas to smash it out of the park, and it all starts up front (at the OL). There is no reason why that pick should be anything else but an OL, unless Chase Young miraculously fell to 11. 

Anyway, in case you wanted to see Dane’s rankings and what I took from his notes, see below: 

  1. Jedrick Wills (top 10): one thing to consider - has played every snap of his HS and college career at RT. That means very little to me, but some old-school NFL guys may move him down because of that. 
  2. Tristan Wirfs (top 10): highlights his freakish athletic ability. Lacks some length which will make some teams hesitate as he doesn’t have a “true” LTs body, but he should be able to play 4 positions on the line at an extremely high level when its all said and done. 
  3. Mekhi Becton (top 15): he truly blossomed under HC Scott Satterfield’s stretch-zone scheme (cough, cough, the line scheme Adam Gase runs). Previously alternated between LT and RT under the previous coaching staff - largely due to game plan. Needs to become a little less aggressive in the NFL and keep his weight in check, otherwise, a 10 year plug-and-play OT on the left or right side. 
  4. Andrew Thomas (top 15): fantastic play strength, but flawed lower body technique. Has not made any changes to his unorthodox footwork and often abandons his mechanics all together. Is that coaching or a player who refuses to change his style? Has the talent so its fixable, but in the near-term balance and footwork are real concerns. 
  5. Josh Jones (Round 1): another gifted athlete and highly touted basketball player who is somewhat of a late-bloomer because of constant change at UH (3 different schemes, 5 different OL coaches). Not much of a run blocker, but has all the tools and is clean in pass protection. Most projectable LT in the draft. 
  6. Austin Jackson (late 1-early 2): see Josh Jones, but less fundamentally sound and more work needed to clean up his game. Best fit at LT. This is pretty much where the drop off occurs, with Brugler feeling that Jackson and Wilson are more late-1st round prospects due to talent, but not nearly as close to the top 5 guys.  
  7. Isaiah Wilson (late 1-early 2): old school OT prospect who is going to appeal to NFL guys because of his potential. Didn't start playing OL full-time until college as he split time on offense and defense in HS. Extremely raw version of Mekhi Becton. Athletic talent is definitely there, but needs to clean up his game head-to-toe. 
  8. Ezra Cleveland (Round 2): impressive athlete, smart, but lacks strength and length. Played in a non-traditional scheme in a weaker conference. 
  9. Saahdiq Charles (late 2-early 3): Late bloomer- didn’t become a full time starting OL until his senior year in HS. Light-footed and has all the tools, but upper body is a mess. Suspended for 6 games. A top 50 player with maturity concerns and raw technique likely push him down on a lot of boards.  
  10. Prince Tega Wanogho (late 2-early 3): Played in Gus Malzahn’s scheme which doesn’t do a great job of preparing OL for the NFL given the big transition. Gifted athlete who started playing football in 2014 and OL in 2016. A lot of mental errors in his game. Has the tools, athleticism, and character to succeed, but the rawness and scheme will likely mean he’ll have to wait until the 3rd round to hear his name called. 

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7 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

From Dane Brugler regarding the OL class for those of you who aren’t subscribed to The Athletic: 

Again, while I am a faithful advocate of drafting BPA, especially in round 1, this year is different specifically when speaking of OT vs. WR. Obviously there’s tons of data that one can point to suggesting the importance of OL>WR, but usually I’d still say draft the best player if it came down to it. What makes this class unique is that it’s one of the best top-heavy crops of OTs I’ve seen in a long time (yet not so great in terms of depth) while being the deepest WR of my lifetime, possibly ever. Like, I really believe Josh Jones would be a top 15 pick in most drafts yet he’s often ranked the 5th best OL prospect. This is where resource allocation comes to play. If it came down to it, yes, I’d take the 4th or 5th rated OT at 11 over Jeudy and Lamb because I know that there will be extremely good WR prospects littered throughout the rest of the draft. Hell, let's say hypothetically speaking that the Jets have top 30 rankings on Jeudy/Lamb/Ruggs/Shenault/Jefferson/Auyik/Higgins/Reagor (order taken from the draft network but also extremely realistic) - there is a legitimate shot at one of those guys, if not multiple, are there in round 2, whereas the OT/OL market will have severely began to thin by that point... there may not even be an OL they feel that strongly about, let alone being a top 50 player. And even if you take that calculated risk and you’re not crazy about the WR available at 48, guess what? There are going to be day 1 starters at WR that fall to the 3rd, maybe even the 4th round! This draft is teed up for Douglas to smash it out of the park, and it all starts up front (at the OL). There is no reason why that pick should be anything else but an OL, unless Chase Young miraculously fell to 11. 

Anyway, in case you wanted to see Dane’s rankings and what I took from his notes, see below: 

  1. Jedrick Wills (top 10): one thing to consider - has played every snap of his HS and college career at RT. That means very little to me, but some old-school NFL guys may move him down because of that. 
  2. Tristan Wirfs (top 10): highlights his freakish athletic ability. Lacks some length which will make some teams hesitate as he doesn’t have a “true” LTs body, but he should be able to play 4 positions on the line at an extremely high level when its all said and done. 
  3. Mekhi Becton (top 15): he truly blossomed under HC Scott Satterfield’s stretch-zone scheme (cough, cough, the line scheme Adam Gase runs). Previously alternated between LT and RT under the previous coaching staff - largely due to game plan. Needs to become a little less aggressive in the NFL and keep his weight in check, otherwise, a 10 year plug-and-play OT on the left or right side. 
  4. Andrew Thomas (top 15): fantastic play strength, but flawed lower body technique. Has not made any changes to his unorthodox footwork and often abandons his mechanics all together. Is that coaching or a player who refuses to change his style? Has the talent so its fixable, but in the near-term balance and footwork are real concerns. 
  5. Josh Jones (Round 1): another gifted athlete and highly touted basketball player who is somewhat of a late-bloomer because of constant change at UH (3 different schemes, 5 different OL coaches). Not much of a run blocker, but has all the tools and is clean in pass protection. Most projectable LT in the draft. 
  6. Austin Jackson (late 1-early 2): see Josh Jones, but less fundamentally sound and more work needed to clean up his game. Best fit at LT. This is pretty much where the drop off occurs, with Brugler feeling that Jackson and Wilson are more late-1st round prospects due to talent, but not nearly as close to the top 5 guys.  
  7. Isaiah Wilson (late 1-early 2): old school OT prospect who is going to appeal to NFL guys because of his potential. Didn't start playing OL full-time until college as he split time on offense and defense in HS. Extremely raw version of Mekhi Becton. Athletic talent is definitely there, but needs to clean up his game head-to-toe. 
  8. Ezra Cleveland (Round 2): impressive athlete, smart, but lacks strength and length. Played in a non-traditional scheme in a weaker conference. 
  9. Saahdiq Charles (late 2-early 3): Late bloomer- didn’t become a full time starting OL until his senior year in HS. Light-footed and has all the tools, but upper body is a mess. Suspended for 6 games. A top 50 player with maturity concerns and raw technique likely push him down on a lot of boards.  
  10. Prince Tega Wanogho (late 2-early 3): Played in Gus Malzahn’s scheme which doesn’t do a great job of preparing OL for the NFL given the big transition. Gifted athlete who started playing football in 2014 and OL in 2016. A lot of mental errors in his game. Has the tools, athleticism, and character to succeed, but the rawness and scheme will likely mean he’ll have to wait until the 3rd round to hear his name called. 

You know my take that I want an OT at 11. I also value WR for us equally. That being said... your assessment is pretty much assuming we go WR at 48. Which obviously isn’t guaranteed. So let’s say we go OT at 11 (would be happy with this), but then go Edge, CB or even another OLineman at 48. Now you’re talking a decent drop off in Round 3 at WR. This is also assuming we draft a WR in Round 3. I agree that protecting Darnold should be the main focus. But we can’t keep giving him mid round guys that we hope work out as weapons. We need to give him legit weapons to see this team succeed. We haven’t done this in forever.

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7 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

As a TTU alum and fan... trust me we don’t want Steele unless it’s in the very late rounds.

That is unfortunate. 

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