2019 West Finals | (1) Golden State Warriors vs (3) Portland Trail Blazers (GSW wins 4-0)

[champ11]

19 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

That's all fine and dandy, I'm just confused at the part where it is a given Lillard out played Kyrie in the regular season. Not saying it wasn't close, but I damn sure didn't see Lillard out playing him. About the same? Sure. 

Dame as the #1 option has more of a sample size. I mean sure they are better alongside another top level player, but how many true #1 superstars are there? The list is VERY small. We are now talking the elite of the elite. So we have seen more years of Dame and his series vs OKC was epic so I will give him that. But Kyrie despite how bad he was this postseason was no worse than what we have seen from Lillard in the past, in particular just last year against NO. 

I just think it’s clear that Dame raises his roster as the #1 and it appears Kyrie does the opposite. Just my opinion - like you said, only 2 seasons for Kyrie and he can improve, but Dame is clearly one of the best culture setters in the NBA. That matters 

[J-ALL-DAY]

1 hour ago, champ11 said:

I just think it’s clear that Dame raises his roster as the #1 and it appears Kyrie does the opposite. Just my opinion - like you said, only 2 seasons for Kyrie and he can improve, but Dame is clearly one of the best culture setters in the NBA. That matters 

More delusional, flat earth truther or a man who said this: 

 

[Kip Smithers]

7 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

I don't think it's that nobody plans to stop him, but he's certainly not near the top of the totem pole when it comes to defensive attention.

I don't think it's fair to compare players like Lillard and Thompson. Lillard is a proven top dog who can lead his team to 50+ wins consistently, create his own shot against just about anyone, bend the defense and manipulate entire game plans, etc. Thompson isn't asked to do nearly as much offensively as Lillard. They're very different players with different responsibilities, and that's fine.

However, when I'm considering a ranking like this, I usually prefer the one who has to deal with a lot more and proves they can handle it.

I mean he’s not at the top of the totem pole because he has two other top 3 players beside him.

i agree with your premise though. It’s a preference. I was just defending Klay from the notion that it’s ridiculous to think he’s better than Dame and doesn’t get attention. 

[jrry32]

15 hours ago, showtime said:

Klay Thompson isn't a better player.  He's a great shooter and when the guy gets hot he can be amazing.  He has very little responsibility on offense.  He can't even create his own offense, let alone create for other people.  He can't shoot off the dribble.  And he's never game planed against.  How is that better than a guy who is the #1 option?

If Klay Thompson was the #1 option on a team, saw elite defenders and was actually game planned against - he wouldn't be anywhere near as good.

 

It's so crazy to me that players who are 3rd options on teams who are so limited, get such high praise.  It's so silly.  Klay is awesome for what he is, I love him.  But better than Dame Lillard?  Please.

Klay is better. Klay doesn't need to create for others to be better. Being an elite shooter and defender is very rare in today's NBA. The #1 option stuff is just silly. I love Dame, but his shot creation and playmaking skills don't outweigh Klay's shooting and defense. It's like claiming that Shaq wasn't one of the GOATs because he wasn't a shot creator. Guys have different skills.

7 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

I don't think it's that nobody plans to stop him, but he's certainly not near the top of the totem pole when it comes to defensive attention.

I don't think it's fair to compare players like Lillard and Thompson. Lillard is a proven top dog who can lead his team to 50+ wins consistently, create his own shot against just about anyone, bend the defense and manipulate entire game plans, etc. Thompson isn't asked to do nearly as much offensively as Lillard. They're very different players with different responsibilities, and that's fine.

However, when I'm considering a ranking like this, I usually prefer the one who has to deal with a lot more and proves they can handle it.

I'd rather have the rarer skill-set. An elite two-way player like Klay is harder to find than a shot creator like Dame. I think Klay adds more to the team.

[showtime]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Klay is better. Klay doesn't need to create for others to be better. Being an elite shooter and defender is very rare in today's NBA. The #1 option stuff is just silly. I love Dame, but his shot creation and playmaking skills don't outweigh Klay's shooting and defense. It's like claiming that Shaq wasn't one of the GOATs because he wasn't a shot creator. Guys have different skills.

I'd rather have the rarer skill-set. An elite two-way player like Klay is harder to find than a shot creator like Dame. I think Klay adds more to the team.

Klay adds more to a team because of the team he's on and the players he plays with.  Like I said, if Klay Thompson was the #1 option on a team, I would be curious to see how great he is.

Must be nice having the best guard in basketball on one side and the best wing player in basketball on the other side.  A lot of dudes would be great in that situation.

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, showtime said:

Klay adds more to a team because of the team he's on and the players he plays with.  Like I said, if Klay Thompson was the #1 option on a team, I would be curious to see how great he is.

Must be nice having the best guard in basketball on one side and the best wing player in basketball on the other side.  A lot of dudes would be great in that situation.

If Klay was the #1 option, he'd be just as great unless he was literally surrounded by nobody who could dribble a basketball. It's not like Klay stands in one spot uncovered and shoots. Like Curry, he's masterful at moving without the ball and getting his shot off in tight spaces. He's a top 3 shooter in the NBA today. 

[showtime]

8 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

If Klay was the #1 option, he'd be just as great unless he was literally surrounded by nobody who could dribble a basketball. It's not like Klay stands in one spot uncovered and shoots. Like Curry, he's masterful at moving without the ball and getting his shot off in tight spaces. He's a top 3 shooter in the NBA today. 

He might be a top 3 shooter ever.  But I've already gave him credit for being a great shooter.  He still can't dribble, can't consistently put the ball on the floor or shoot off the dribble.  He's very limited offensively.  He's an awesome defender.

Klay is dope.  He's just not ever a #1 option in this league and he plays in literally the greatest situation ever. 

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, showtime said:

He might be a top 3 shooter ever.  But I've already gave him credit for being a great shooter.  He still can't dribble, can't consistently put the ball on the floor or shoot off the dribble.  He's very limited offensively.  He's an awesome defender.

Klay is dope.  He's just not ever a #1 option in this league and he plays in literally the greatest situation ever. 

Everything you just said in bold is wrong. And it's blatantly wrong. Klay doesn't have the handles of a shot-creating PG. He doesn't have the explosive first step to make penetration easy. But he has above average handles, can definitely put the ball on the floor, and can absolutely shoot off the dribble and on the move. Your claims that Klay could never be a #1 would apply just as much to Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Shaq (and basically any big man ever), etc. It's a farce. You're basically claiming that only shot creators can be #1s. Nope.

[showtime]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

Everything you just said in bold is wrong. And it's blatantly wrong. Klay doesn't have the handles of a shot-creating PG. He doesn't have the explosive first step to make penetration easy. But he has above average handles, can definitely put the ball on the floor, and can absolutely shoot off the dribble and on the move. Your claims that Klay could never be a #1 would apply just as much to Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Shaq (and basically any big man ever), etc. It's a farce. You're basically claiming that only shot creators can be #1s. Nope.

Ray Allen?  Allen was much more than just a shooter offensively.  Klay Thompson is nowhere near as good as him.  I'm obviously not talking about big men... I thought that was obvious.  Guys like Shaq and Duncan can create their own offense with the basketball in the post, though.

He doesn't have above average handles, what are you talking about?  Tell me a #1 option in this league over the past 10 years that can't consistently create their own offense off the dribble (outside of a big man). 

[jrry32]

11 minutes ago, showtime said:

Ray Allen?  Allen was much more than just a shooter offensively.  Klay Thompson is nowhere near as good as him.  I'm obviously not talking about big men... I thought that was obvious.  Guys like Shaq and Duncan can create their own offense with the basketball in the post, though.

He doesn't have above average handles, what are you talking about?  Tell me a #1 option in this league over the past 10 years that can't consistently create their own offense off the dribble (outside of a big man). 

Ray Allen was the same type of player as Klay. Thompson can't create off the bounce? Did you watch the game last night? He had little trouble penetrating the Blazers defense. You'll see multiple instances in this video of Klay driving and finishing or shooting off the dribble:

And that was in 2015. Klay's handles have improved since 2015. Here's a video of Klay splitting the defense on a drive and dunk:

Klay can't create off the bounce or shoot off the dribble? Seriously? Dude isn't Steph or Dame, but the idea that he's a pure spot-up shooter is a farce.

[showtime]

You're just like the other dude in here who locks things into stone.  Earlier when I said Klay Thompson isn't game planned against, he took that literal.  I obviously meant, when a defense game plans to limit the Golden State Warriors, the focus is more put into Curry and Durant MUCH more than it is for Klay Thompson.  Klay literally wouldn't have that luxury on many other teams, if he was the #1 option.  He hardly ever sees the opposing team's best defender because that player is usually on Durant, Curry or even Draymond (if the defender is a PF type).  These are all luxury's that Klay wouldn't have on most other teams.

Okay, you can show clips of Klay putting the ball on the floor.  I'm not saying it in a literal way.  I'm saying that he doesn't put the ball on the floor most of the time because he doesn't have to.  I also don't think he can do it consistently, which is what I said in one of my post. 

I think there was a game early in the season where Klay scored like 50 or 60 points and only dribbled the ball like 12 times in the entire game.

In 2016, he racked up 60 points in a game where he only dribbled 11 times (the ball was in his hands for a total of 90 seconds).

I'm not trying to say he literally can't dribble.  He's in the NBA.  My main point is that he doesn't have the skill set to be a true top tier #1 option in this league.

[jrry32]

3 hours ago, showtime said:

I'm not trying to say he literally can't dribble.  He's in the NBA.  My main point is that he doesn't have the skill set to be a true top tier #1 option in this league.

My main point is that he does. He's a lights out shooter from distance, he is gifted in post-up situations due to his ability to shoot over defenders, he has the athleticism and handles to be a threat off the bounce, and he's an elite defender. The idea that you have to be a great shot creator to be a #1 simply isn't realistic.

[amac]

On 5/21/2019 at 9:53 AM, J-ALL-DAY said:

Why is it a joke to have Kyrie over Lillard? Sure he didn't play well in the playoffs, but we have legit history of Lillard having not so great playoff runs. Granted, his series with OKC was epic but after that he kind of fell off. Granted, if you want to point to Kyrie's injury history that is fair as he didn't look close to being 100% this postseason. But in terms of pure talent and game? Kyrie is more proven in the playoffs and has annihilated some of the best defenders in the game (Bradley/Thompson/Iggy).

I think Kyrie is a better player and much tougher to slow down when he is locked in, but its fair to say Lillard is far better for team chemistry purposes based on this season

Edited May 23, 2019 by amac