Who's your 2019 Breakout Player

[vegas492]

13 hours ago, Mazrimiv said:

You are very much mistaken if you think Moss' game was strictly about his ability to run vertical routes.

 Oh.  Please elaborate.

I'd love to know what he game was if it wasn't setting up or running a deep route.

I do remember him hitting a traffic cop with his car and pushing her down the street.  Of course there was the mooning, which was kind of funny.  How the Vikings traded him in his prime a year and half removed from a 1600 yard season.  How they cut him after acquiring him the second time.

Yah, there was more to his game.  For most of his career, he was a cancer inside the locker room.  BB locked that down for a few years, but even he moved on from the business of Randy Moss pretty quickly.

I feel like he's matured a lot since his playing days.  I feel like he deserved the Hall of Fame because in my life, he's the single best vertical receiver to lace up a pair of shoes.  And I doubt that in my life I'll see another athlete that could accelerate like him at the end of a vertical route.

But saying that there was more to Moss than vertical routes is like saying there is more to a car than moving.

[boratt]

3 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

 

But saying that there was more to Moss than vertical routes is like saying there is more to a car than moving.

 

Dozens of players can run like moss. Very few dominate the way he did. It was more than his deep speed, but his deep speed on top of everything else is what made him the best I’ve seen. 

 

[incognito_man]

4 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Who else leaks it?

MAYBE Gutekunst/Murphy for one more reason to justify the firing of McCarthy, but the list of people who benefit from that report are extremely short. 

The logic is a stretch I mean. I don't care who 'leaked' it. I'm saying that literally no one came to the epiphany "ohhhh...THATS why Rodgers doesn't throw to the young guys!" after reading that.

Would have been a completely worthless tactical move from Rodgers if his intent was to help people understand why he didn't throw to young WRs.

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure he doesn't care whatsoever that a few people complain he didn't throw to young WRs 

Edited July 18, 2019 by incognito_man

[deathstar]

5 hours ago, vegas492 said:

 Oh.  Please elaborate.

I'd love to know what he game was if it wasn't setting up or running a deep route.

I do remember him hitting a traffic cop with his car and pushing her down the street.  Of course there was the mooning, which was kind of funny.  How the Vikings traded him in his prime a year and half removed from a 1600 yard season.  How they cut him after acquiring him the second time.

Yah, there was more to his game.  For most of his career, he was a cancer inside the locker room.  BB locked that down for a few years, but even he moved on from the business of Randy Moss pretty quickly.

I feel like he's matured a lot since his playing days.  I feel like he deserved the Hall of Fame because in my life, he's the single best vertical receiver to lace up a pair of shoes.  And I doubt that in my life I'll see another athlete that could accelerate like him at the end of a vertical route.

But saying that there was more to Moss than vertical routes is like saying there is more to a car than moving.

There's a lot more to a car than moving. Not sure what you mean there? 

Speaking of Belichik this is what he said about Moss:

But, I learned a lot from Randy. Randy had a big impact on me as a coach. He taught me the game from a perspective that I had never really seen before or understood before. I’ll always be grateful to him for that, for doing that. But, he was a great person to have on the team.

Sounds like a cancer to me.

4 hours ago, incognito_man said:

The logic is a stretch I mean. I don't care who 'leaked' it. I'm saying that literally no one came to the epiphany "ohhhh...THATS why Rodgers doesn't throw to the young guys!" after reading that.

Would have been a completely worthless tactical move from Rodgers if his intent was to help people understand why he didn't throw to young WRs.

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure he doesn't care whatsoever that a few people complain he didn't throw to young WRs 

Doesn't get brought up much but Rodgers didn't practice on Wednesdays last year for half the season. Wednesdays were our 'move the ball' practice. So his only chance to get on the same page as the young receivers, when defenses were playing, was during games.

[vegas492]

8 hours ago, boratt said:

 

Dozens of players can run like moss. Very few dominate the way he did. It was more than his deep speed, but his deep speed on top of everything else is what made him the best I’ve seen. 

 

I very much disagree.  I've not seen anyone yet who could run with Moss when he was young and in his prime.  Even old Randy Moss was as fast as he wanted to be.  Didn't he say he clocked a 4.27 40 at a tryout in New England?  I could very well have that wrong, but the point is...that speed stayed with him.

The thing that let him dominate was size and acceleration at the end of the deep route.  He had the ability to get an extra burst at the end to close a gap on a ball, or leave someone in the dust.  And he did it with a large frame.

He's the best deep receiver I've ever seen.  Wish I'd seen Cliff Branch, heard that was his specialty.  Lofton was pretty amazing at it.

Best overall wide receiver?  Man.  Prime Terrell Owens was amazing.  Much more physical.  Could beat you with a lot of different routes.  ...course there were drawbacks to him, too.  

Very interesting to think about.  Moss makes my top 5.  Easily.  I can probably get him top 3 with Rice and Owens.

[Golfman]

1 minute ago, vegas492 said:

I very much disagree.  I've not seen anyone yet who could run with Moss when he was young and in his prime.  Even old Randy Moss was as fast as he wanted to be.  Didn't he say he clocked a 4.27 40 at a tryout in New England?  I could very well have that wrong, but the point is...that speed stayed with him.

The thing that let him dominate was size and acceleration at the end of the deep route.  He had the ability to get an extra burst at the end to close a gap on a ball, or leave someone in the dust.  And he did it with a large frame.

He's the best deep receiver I've ever seen.  Wish I'd seen Cliff Branch, heard that was his specialty.  Lofton was pretty amazing at it.

Best overall wide receiver?  Man.  Prime Terrell Owens was amazing.  Much more physical.  Could beat you with a lot of different routes.  ...course there were drawbacks to him, too.  

Very interesting to think about.  Moss makes my top 5.  Easily.  I can probably get him top 3 with Rice and Owens.

He was better than Owens by a bunch. 

[vegas492]

3 hours ago, deathstar said:

There's a lot more to a car than moving. Not sure what you mean there? 

Speaking of Belichik this is what he said about Moss:

But, I learned a lot from Randy. Randy had a big impact on me as a coach. He taught me the game from a perspective that I had never really seen before or understood before. I’ll always be grateful to him for that, for doing that. But, he was a great person to have on the team.

Sounds like a cancer to me.

Doesn't get brought up much but Rodgers didn't practice on Wednesdays last year for half the season. Wednesdays were our 'move the ball' practice. So his only chance to get on the same page as the young receivers, when defenses were playing, was during games.

BB is a defensive coach, I have no doubt Moss told him what he saw as an offensive player.  And Randy had the unique perspective of being the supreme deep threat.  

I'm sure he was a great person to have on the team.  Except that BB traded him when he was no longer that great a person to have on that team.

Look, I'm not hating on Moss.  Just adding perspective.  Played for 4 teams his last 4 years in the league.  Vikings got rid of him in his prime.  So did the Raiders.  Vikes didn't want him around young players.  That's the Moss I don't want around MVS.

The Moss you hear now is not quite the same guy that was in the NFL.

[boratt]

Moss is the best for me because of the deep routes. He did everything else too. Maybe not quite as good underneath as some of the best but good enough to be good at everything.

[vegas492]

3 minutes ago, Golfman said:

He was better than Owens by a bunch. 

Two different kinds of playing styles.  Both were unreal.  Check out the stats.  Mirror images.  Only Owens was more consistent.  Randy had a few booms and a few busts.

I prefer Owens' toughness and physical play.

Randy has him on the deep stuff.

[vegas492]

1 minute ago, boratt said:

Moss is the best for me because of the deep routes. He did everything else too. Maybe not quite as good underneath as some of the best but good enough to be good at everything.

Moss had splash plays and was magnificent at them.

He also refused to run block and would dog his routes if he wasn't the primary target.  

And in that regard, Owens would dog it too, but then he'd complain about not being the primary guy.  Moss didn't complain as much.

Both were exceptional to me.

But Rice was the best overall.

[Golfman]

2 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Two different kinds of playing styles.  Both were unreal.  Check out the stats.  Mirror images.  Only Owens was more consistent.  Randy had a few booms and a few busts.

I prefer Owens' toughness and physical play.

Randy has him on the deep stuff.

Look at the quarterbacks they played with. Other than a few years with Brady, Moss had a bunch of average to terrible QB's. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Golfman

[deathstar]

46 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

BB is a defensive coach, I have no doubt Moss told him what he saw as an offensive player.  And Randy had the unique perspective of being the supreme deep threat.  

I'm sure he was a great person to have on the team.  Except that BB traded him when he was no longer that great a person to have on that team.

Look, I'm not hating on Moss.  Just adding perspective.  Played for 4 teams his last 4 years in the league.  Vikings got rid of him in his prime.  So did the Raiders.  Vikes didn't want him around young players.  That's the Moss I don't want around MVS.

The Moss you hear now is not quite the same guy that was in the NFL.

I understand that, but if the best coach in the game - who's a bit more than just a defensive coach - is complimenting you then you're doing something right.

[boratt]

Rice is like the emmit Smith of receivers. Durability, consistency, longevity, work ethic. Moss is the Barry Sanders. 

[AlexGreen#20]

4 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Moss had splash plays and was magnificent at them.

He also refused to run block and would dog his routes if he wasn't the primary target.  

And in that regard, Owens would dog it too, but then he'd complain about not being the primary guy.  Moss didn't complain as much.

Both were exceptional to me.

But Rice was the best overall.

Never really heard the complaint about Owens and effort. TO was psychotic in his effort.

[vegas492]

14 hours ago, Golfman said:

Look at the quarterbacks they played with. Other than a few years with Brady, Moss had a bunch of average to terrible QB's. 

For Randy's game, those QB's were pretty darned good.

Cunningham was a great deep passer.  Prime Culpepper was pretty amazing.

I find it funny and amazing that the Vikings with Favre couldn't make it work with Moss.  Kerry Collins was pretty good for a few years.  Especially with the deep ball.  

Then there was the old Aaron Brooks/Andrew Walter combo...yah...garbage.  

Still wonder why NE gave up on Moss after three years, 1000+ yard seasons and 47 TD's.  Only lasted 4 games.

Owens was successful everywhere he went.  I admire both guys for their stats and their games.

Owens was so much more physical and diverse.  Randy was the elite vertical weapon.  Two totally different games.  Both highly productive.  Both controversial.  When I look at stats for them, they are eerily similar, only Moss had a few years that were nuclear and a few that were pathetic.  Owens was more consistent, but not as otherworldly dynamic.

Here's one for you...

If you are in the Moss camp versus Owens, I really can't dispute that.  To me, it is preference.

Where does Jerry Rice fit in there?  He's the guy I got to watch quite a bit of who I think was better than both.  More diverse with routes.  Unreal deep threat when younger, game evolved over time.  To me, he's the best WR that I have been able to see.  (Sorry Sterling, you didn't play long enough.)