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OTA/Camp Observations 2019


DreamKid

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6 minutes ago, Danand said:

The discussion comes from this

On 13.8.2019 at 10:24 PM, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Not being able to be a #1 pass rusher when that's precisely why we drafted him and what his perceived strength was coming out of college? He's not elite or even great at anything. 

Right - it was about how the media hasn't said a word about Judon not really flashing in camp or anything but the media has criticized other people far more. Another fair point not regarding Judon is the media does the same with Jefferson, who has been beaten by just about everyone so far in camp.

Looking back, I shouldn't have added "when that's precisely why we drafted him", because it implies we drafted him in the 5th round to be our #1 pass rusher, when instead we drafted him in the 5th round because he was the most productive collegiate pass rusher still on the board, and that's what his perceived strength is. 

If we all agree he's outperformed his draft slot and we all agree that given his past seasons he's not going to get the contract he wants, I think we're all on the same page. The discussion now seems to be whether or not Judon can handle being "the guy" at OLB vs. just another body in a rotation of guys.

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If Judon fails to perform this year, he will be well deserving of criticism.

But not all veteran players need to dominate in camp. For some it is about getting their mind and body ready to roll on game 1 of the regular season. Judon has performed well enough in 3 years to earn the benefit of the doubt, IMO. Let's see where he's at vs. the Dolphins on September 8. 

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has Judon even indicated what being paid does mean to him? ppl act like he is asking for top3 linebacker money when he is playing on a 5th round contract. Of course he is looking to get paid for vastly outperforming his draft status. Doesn't necessarily mean he'll demand top market money. If so, good riddance. Can't say i blame him though. It'll be his first and maybe only payday for his profession.

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6 minutes ago, berlin calling said:

has Judon even indicated what being paid does mean to him? ppl act like he is asking for top3 linebacker money when he is playing on a 5th round contract. Of course he is looking to get paid for vastly outperforming his draft status. Doesn't necessarily mean he'll demand top market money. If so, good riddance. Can't say i blame him though. It'll be his first and maybe only payday for his profession.

Za'Darius Smith was pick 172 and look at what he commanded on the market. You don't think Judon is going to ask for more than that?

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For me the biggest thing is the opportunity cost. If Judon were simply a “5th round pick over performing his slot” then we could and should use him in a rotation that best benefits the team, similar to a Chuck Clark. Judon is not a better pass rusher than Williams and probably not even as effective as Bowser. Yet he’s basically been an every down player.

Judon, just like Tony Jefferson has increased expectations because he’s a starter along a perennial top 5-10 defense. He got 3 garbage sacks in a game but based off of his usage, his effectiveness was not particularly special. Smith was the better and more effective rusher of the two, he raised his game based off of the opportunities he was provided.

Judon has received opportunities that have not been consistent with his production as a starter. He’s not judged as a 5th round pick just as Michael Pierce is no longer judged as an undrafted free agent that let down the team by coming into camp out of shape. They are both judged as starters. The opportunity cost of Judon as a starter is that younger players with more potential are being denied opportunities to show they are more talented. 

Thus, just as I’m down on Tony Jefferson and his lack of inspired play regardless of the fact that he went undrafted, the same is true for Matt Judon. He’s a solid player, same as Jefferson, but that’s it. This is the Ravens defense, there is a quality standard one must meet to be worthy of the starter title.

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4 minutes ago, berlin calling said:

true. still he already exceeded his draft status by far and outperformed guys drafted with premium picks to start over him. Would Bowser and Williams have met their draft status Judon would not be a starter on this D.

Williams and Bowser have each flashed more potential than Judon as pass rushers and also Bowser in coverage. The issues with both of them seem to be things fans can't see on a day-to-day basis, because Bowser won Rookie of The Week and then basically never played again in 2017, and Tim Williams was playing at a super high level, then got "injured" and then basically never played again in 2018. 

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I see, so people are mad at Judon because he gets more playing time than hyped young players like Bowser and Williams (and probably Correa too). 

Well if Bowser and Williams performed better in practice, then they would get playing time over Judon. 

It's nice for Bowser and Williams to have potential, but if they can't earn their way on the field, they don't deserve to get defensive snaps. Harbaugh is not going to sacrifice the quality of the defense so that young guys might improve. 

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24 minutes ago, berlin calling said:

lets just hope both of them finally come through and are able to replace him as starter for good. Win/win as both are more talented and the contract for Judon would not come as hefty.

Yes! Best outcome is that Judon racks up 15 sacks this year, and the Ravens have his replacement ready and a 3rd round comp pick. 

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Both of these can be true at the same time-

Matt Judon is a great return on a 5th Round pick and he has greatly outperformed typical expectations.

Matt Judon is an overrated commodity by certain fans and the media, who draws favorable coverage.

 

Judon has made it clear that he's seeking a giant contract, and that there will be no "hometown discount". Which is fine, that's certainly well within his rights as a player. With that stance though, and top billing on the depth chart at a key position. The expectations are usually going to be pretty high. 

My only issue is that he isn't being evaluated commensurate to his standing within the team. He's missing practices. Wink stated half way into camp "Judon needs to get his camp legs under him", 3/4 of the way through camp Wink said "Judon needs to stop thinking so much". Camp/Practices notes of stand out moments for Judon are scarce. His Coach is dialing back on him as a player, he's missing time, and overall just isn't flashing the way you would want him to. 

That isn't a good look for Judon, doesn't matter how you slice it. Yet we're reading about how Jaylon Ferguson isn't flashing/standing out and it's like..uh well he is a Rookie you know and I haven't seen any mention of Judon(our actually starter at the position) excelling in camp, the opposite actually- that seems a little more important there Ace Reporter.

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2 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

My only issue is that he isn't being evaluated commensurate to his standing within the team. He's missing practices. Wink stated half way into camp "Judon needs to get his camp legs under him", 3/4 of the way through camp Wink said "Judon needs to stop thinking so much". Camp/Practices notes of stand out moments for Judon are scarce. His Coach is dialing back on him as a player, he's missing time, and overall just isn't flashing the way you would want him to. 

I think you are placing way too much emphasis on a couple of quotes and random/imprecise information to make an accurate assessment of Judon at this stage.  

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47 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I think you are placing way too much emphasis on a couple of quotes and random/imprecise information to make an accurate assessment of Judon at this stage.  

Perhaps you’re not placing enough emphasis on the couple of quotes that we have. A small sample size of negativity is still a sample size of negativity.

Michael Pierce came into camp in a contract year out of shape and has been rightly roasted for it. Judon came into camp somewhat out of shape in a contract year and his coach is the only one to talk about it.

Whats more, I can only speak to what I see, Judon has been outperformed by virtually every one of our OLBs as a pass rusher (Suggs, Smith, Bowser, and Williams) in both games and training camp practices available to the public.

Whats more we know that performance doesn’t always equate to promotion in the real world. Sometimes maturity, likeability, etc are factors.

Judon entered a barren landscape and overexceeded expectations and thus his perceived potential afforded him bypassed competition for his spot.

We cannot confidently state that he’s practiced better than the other options, that’s an assumption. All we know is that he starts. Just like Skura has been outperformed by other center options, yet remains the starter and sees no competition. Just like Orlando Brown outplayed James Hurst, yet was benched in 2018.

The only fair measure is to have high expectations for any player that starts on a Ravens defense or sees a high amount of snaps. If they fail to meet those advanced expectations regardless of how they got there, they are subject to criticism. Such as with Judon. He was a very inconsistent player in 2018 that was average as a run stopper and below average some games as a pass rusher and some games he was above average to good.

That type of inconsistency is the opportunity cost for someone replacing him and being more consistent in his role. Though replacing him now could effectively net less of a comp pick, but still.

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It's so funny how hard we are on our EDGE group, I guess it's that Baltimore Defensive tradition that makes us so demanding.

We knew what we were getting when we drafted Tyus Bowser and Tim Williams. Bowser was a technically very raw super athlete and Williams a Pass Rush specialist used in a limited role(Some character flags tossed in for fun too).

Just off description alone, you wouldn't peg either guy as players to take on a big role in 2017. Then you throw 3 starting caliber players in front of them Suggs- HOFer, ZDS- Vet ready to breakout, Judon- 2nd Year leap candidate. Doesn't exactly sound like the stage is set for them huh?

To their credit though, they actually manage to flash in their 1st Year- despite the typical Rookie speed bumps, learning curve, and their place on the depth chart. 

In Year 2, they get a new DC, have to learn a new defense, and that Vet trio is still in front of them. They flash in camp, but also deal with injuries. Both Ace Preseason and once again flash in the regular season. 

Year 3? Suggs leaves to play for his hometown team. ZDS cashes out with a massive contract. 

On paper everything seems like a beyond reasonable outcome given the circumstances, and it looks like the stage is set for Tyus and Tim to be big contributors in Year 3. Yet we've been inundated with articles listing both players as complete failures, in danger of being cut, and draft busts. 

It's actually hilarious when you put it all in perspective.

It's like the reverse of our situation at WR. Tim White catches a few passes and the Raven verse declares it a capital crime to cut him, but Tyus and Tim are failures because "They couldn't even beat out Terrell Suggs for playing time".

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