Jaguars Cut Down to 53

[Adrenaline_Flux]

 

[Tugboat]

2 hours ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

At the end of the day, the decision in either direction (in both cases) make sense, so I don't have a strong opinion either way (though I will usually lean toward the potential on the back-end of the roster). Just crazy to see the same people having a strong negative reaction in both circumstances.

Yeah.  That's the thing...Can pretty much guarantee these bottom-of-roster fringe guys aren't going to be the difference between this team been awful or not awful.  I get liking some depth guys over others, but to get up in arms over cutting this "hidden gem"  bottom of the depth chart guy who will barely see any snaps outside of ST is just...weird.  Especially when it comes to keeping fresh draft picks instead of journeymen "they are who they are" guys who have been around a while and still not latched on anywhere.  A lot of them seem to be same people who tend to advocate the importance of having an overabundance of draft picks on draft day too.  lol.

[pwny]

4 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Considering some loved Cam Robinson as an OG prospect, I don't think it's crazy to think that we were going to do the Tunsil thing that Miami did. Have a veteran LT, let Cam learn and play LG his first year, ease him into the spot next year.

Then why did they not even attempt to get Cam even one rep at LG? Why did they keep saying that Cam was only going to play LT?

4 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Players holdout/do stuff like that for contracts all the time.

Yeah, they do hold out. What’s completely irregular, however, is refusing to talk to the team, and also not letting your agent talk to the team either. He wasn’t holding out for a new contract. If he was, his agent would have talked to the team. Because it’s hard to get a new contract if your contract can’t be negotiated.

They also didn’t even work Cam out until April 19th, just two days after Albert no-showed camp. Seems pretty obvious that it was reactionary.

[.Buzz]

Just now, iPwn said:

Then why did they not even attempt to get Cam even one rep at LG? Why did they keep saying that Cam was only going to play LT?

Yeah, they do hold out. What’s completely irregular, however, is refusing to talk to the team, and also not letting your agent talk to the team either. He wasn’t holding out for a new contract. If he was, his agent would have talked to the team. Because it’s hard to get a new contract if your contract can’t be negotiated.

They also didn’t even work Cam out until April 19th, just two days after Albert no-showed camp. Seems pretty obvious that it was reactionary.

Why would they? Albert didn't show up til camp, and he showed up in not so great shape. Why would you let Albert get away with something like that? Make him push/work for the job and give him serious competition. Cam Robinson is the most valuable at the LT position and thats obviously the long-term spot we want for him, so see if he can make it there/beat out Albert first. If not, kick him inside.

We were very interested in Cam Robinson well before that. Pretty sure we've done the same thing with several other draft prospects before that we decided to end up drafting (HC and co. fly up somewhere the week of/two weeks prior to the draft and give the player an intense workout). We did the same thing (although with just Wash and defensive coaches) with Yannick Ngakoue a year ago. This was an OL and Marrone was an OL coach prior so it makes sense he'd go. Did we maybe show more serious interest in him due to the Albert situation? Sure, very possible we did. The OL situation isn't great as is already, when they bring in a vet OL that is supposed to be a key cog to the OL and he doesn't show up/speak to let the team know whats going I'd be a little worried too. Can you imagine the OL situation if we lost Albert AND didn't draft an OT in the top couple rounds?

 

[.Buzz]

There was talk (although not sure it was ever that serious as obviously he fell all the way down to round two) that we had some serious interest in a trade back in the 1st for Cam Robinson. Him falling all the way down to round 2 and it's a no brainer, especially with the OL situation and considering the draft only had a few OL prospects with serious upside/potential and Cam was definitely one of them.

[pwny]

4 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Did we maybe show more serious interest in him due to the Albert situation? Sure, very possible we did. The OL situation isn't great as is already, when they bring in a vet OL that is supposed to be a key cog to the OL and he doesn't show up/speak to let the team know whats going I'd be a little worried too. Can you imagine the OL situation if we lost Albert AND didn't draft an OT in the top couple rounds?

This is my point though. They didn’t go in saying “hey we need to address this obvious position at LG and also get a log term answer at LT after Albert. All indications were that they saw that Albert wouldn’t respond and realized there was a very strong possibility that they wouldn’t have a LT if they didn’t draft one. This wasn’t the team having some foresight, attempting to address LG for this season and LT for the future with a scab vet. It was them realizing Albert almost certainly wasn’t going to play, and finding someone else to take the position. That itself is fine. The problem is that they then didn’t bother to address LG even though it was a disaster, knowing full well that Albert almost certainly wouldn’t be playing.

Or we can go down the idea of the alternate. Cam was drafted to be a G this season, and long term answer at LT. Or the competition would mesh out and whoever would end up at Guard. Then you could argue they at least attempted to address first options. This still neglects the idea they didn’t have an answer for when an oft injured Albert got hurt, who would play G (whether that’s where Albert was, or Cam sliding to LT). But most importantly, if you take this idea of the team having plans for LG for the loser as fact, you have to then believe our front office is so stupid that they thought a guy who refused to allow his agent to contact the team actually wanted the team to talk with his agent and work out a new contract.

I don’t know which of the two ideas is worse. Either Cam was a reactionary choice and the team still hasn’t learned to address secondary options/properly address major issues (at Guard) or the team is full of morons who can’t follow a logic stream that if an agent won’t talk to you, he’s not trying to work out a new contract. 

[.Buzz]

1 minute ago, iPwn said:

This is my point though. They didn’t go in saying “hey we need to address this obvious position at LG and also get a log term answer at LT after Albert. All indications were that they saw that Albert wouldn’t respond and realized there was a very strong possibility that they wouldn’t have a LT if they didn’t draft one. This wasn’t the team having some foresight, attempting to address LG for this season and LT for the future with a scab vet. It was them realizing Albert almost certainly wasn’t going to play, and finding someone else to take the position. That itself is fine. The problem is that they then didn’t bother to address LG even though it was a disaster, knowing full well that Albert almost certainly wouldn’t be playing.

Or we can go down the idea of the alternate. Cam was drafted to be a G this season, and long term answer at LT. Or the competition would mesh out and whoever would end up at Guard. Then you could argue they at least attempted to address first options. This still neglects the idea they didn’t have an answer for when an oft injured Albert got hurt, who would play G (whether that’s where Albert was, or Cam sliding to LT). But most importantly, if you take this idea of the team having plans for LG for the loser as fact, you have to then believe our front office is so stupid that they thought a guy who refused to allow his agent to contact the team actually wanted the team to talk with his agent and work out a new contract.

I don’t know which of the two ideas is worse. Either Cam was a reactionary choice and the team still hasn’t learned to address secondary options/properly address major issues (at Guard) or the team is full of morons who can’t follow a logic stream that if an agent won’t talk to you, he’s not trying to work out a new contract. 

See, that's just it though, I don't think they thought, "Damn, we don't have a LT." I think they knew they needed to draft a guy even with Albert's situation and got a guy who can kick inside or be a LT if things don't work out with Albert OR be the LT in 2018 or 2019 pending on how fast Albert's decline will be as it's inevitable at age 32. I don't know how you come to the conclusion that way back in April they knew Albert was no longer an option. Just a month prior he met up with Coughlin (who was a big fan of his), had a presser, said all the right things, etc. Than came word that he wanted his contract altered and we said there is no way we are doing that and weren't going to discuss his contract. What more would there be to say? He played hardball and it didn't work, finally realizing if he wanted to get paid that he had to show up and considering his body wasn't right/had injury problems last year he got to take the whole offseason off to get back to it.

There just wasn't many options at OG out in FA outside of the top 3 or so guys. Just because we want them doesn't mean they just come right to us. The OL prospects in the draft were absolutely horrendous outside of the top couple rounds and after Cam/Lamp and co. went off the board. We weren't going to get a good backup OT option in FA, as there was no guys that were good that would come in as a backup. The league is already terrible as far as offensive lineman go as it is, so I'm not sure what backup plans we should have entertained behind Albert? We drafted an OT prospect that can slide into guard while Albert is here/healthy, move outside when not. Lamp on the other hand may have had a shot to play OT, but he was clearly superior as an OG prospect and likely wouldn't have been a very solid option to move to LT if something happened to Albert.

What backup OT in FA were you drooling over? I wish there was more good offensive lineman in the league, but there isn't. Do I wish we got another interior guy to push Cann? Sure. But if our idea was an OL of Albert-Cam-Linder-Cann-Parnell nothing was likely going to change that starting OL. We weren't ready to give up on a 3rd rd pick that had a solid rookie season followed by a poor 2nd season, and I can't say I blame them. Wish we could have got a solid OG to push against him or better depth but ultimately there wasn't much on the market. Cyrus Koujiando just got cut and he was a guy some wanted. 

[pwny]

1 minute ago, .Buzz said:

See, that's just it though, I don't think they thought, "Damn, we don't have a LT." I think they knew they needed to draft a guy even with Albert's situation and got a guy who can kick inside or be a LT if things don't work out with Albert OR be the LT in 2018 or 2019 pending on how fast Albert's decline will be as it's inevitable at age 32. I don't know how you come to the conclusion that way back in April they knew Albert was no longer an option. Just a month prior he met up with Coughlin (who was a big fan of his), had a presser, said all the right things, etc. Than came word that he wanted his contract altered and we said there is no way we are doing that and weren't going to discuss his contract. What more would there be to say? He played hardball and it didn't work, finally realizing if he wanted to get paid that he had to show up and considering his body wasn't right/had injury problems last year he got to take the whole offseason off to get back to it.

If he was trying to get his contract altered, his agent wouldn’t be ignoring calls from the team. In what way does that make any sense to want to discuss a contract and then not even have the person whose sole job it is to negotiate a contract not even take a call? I mean he didn’t even tell the team he wasn’t showing up to camp. Coughlin also reiterated that he was refusing to contact the team.

So he no shows camp, doesn’t tell anyone why he didn’t show up, refuses to talk to anyone on the team, refuses to let his agent talk to anyone, and I’m supposed to believe he was actually trying for a new contract? How is the team even supposed to know what he wants if he doesn’t talk to them? The holdout wasn’t about money, and if the Jaguars thought it was, they’re beyond dumb.

I’ll go back and address the other points in this discussion once this gets understood, because almost everything hinges on this. 

[.Buzz]

6 minutes ago, iPwn said:

If he was trying to get his contract altered, his agent wouldn’t be ignoring calls from the team. In what way does that make any sense to want to discuss a contract and then not even have the person whose sole job it is to negotiate a contract not even take a call? I mean he didn’t even tell the team he wasn’t showing up to camp. Coughlin also reiterated that he was refusing to contact the team.

So he no shows camp, doesn’t tell anyone why he didn’t show up, refuses to talk to anyone on the team, refuses to let his agent talk to anyone, and I’m supposed to believe he was actually trying for a new contract? How is the team even supposed to know what he wants if he doesn’t talk to them? The holdout wasn’t about money, and if the Jaguars thought it was, they’re beyond dumb.

I’ll go back and address the other points in this discussion once this gets understood, because almost everything hinges on this. 

"It was just something that my advisers and me thought about after the fact," Albert said. "Things didn't get done, move on. What I'm making this year is not a bad deal. You just look at the market and had conversations and at the end of the day you've got to move on. It is what it is."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19624980/jaguars-ot-branden-albert-says-not-hold-being-unhappy-contract

He also talked about in his return press conference about his injuries and how much wear and tear his body took last year. Sure as hell sounded to me at the time that #1, he wanted to alter his contract and the Jaguars wouldn't budge so he played hardball/wouldn't speak to them until they changed their mind and would discuss the possibility of that. Caldwell/Coughlin said there would be ZERO discussions of the contract being altered in any talks, so I'm not sure what his agent could have done if they closed the door on that completely. #2 he wanted to rest his body up because he wasn't feeling great at seasons end.

Back to him talking about the wear and tear he went through last year, at age 32, what does he have to gain by showing up to OTA's and co.? Obviously with him being a leader and the first year being here you want him here, but if he answers and talks to them and tells them he's not showing up til camp starts to rest his body I don't think they take to it very well.

[pwny]

27 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

"It was just something that my advisers and me thought about after the fact," Albert said. "Things didn't get done, move on. What I'm making this year is not a bad deal. You just look at the market and had conversations and at the end of the day you've got to move on. It is what it is."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19624980/jaguars-ot-branden-albert-says-not-hold-being-unhappy-contract

He also talked about in his return press conference about his injuries and how much wear and tear his body took last year. Sure as hell sounded to me at the time that #1, he wanted to alter his contract and the Jaguars wouldn't budge so he played hardball/wouldn't speak to them until they changed their mind and would discuss the possibility of that. Caldwell/Coughlin said there would be ZERO discussions of the contract being altered in any talks, so I'm not sure what his agent could have done if they closed the door on that completely. #2 he wanted to rest his body up because he wasn't feeling great at seasons end.

Back to him talking about the wear and tear he went through last year, at age 32, what does he have to gain by showing up to OTA's and co.? Obviously with him being a leader and the first year being here you want him here, but if he answers and talks to them and tells them he's not showing up til camp starts to rest his body I don't think they take to it very well.

From that same article:

Quote

Jaguars general manager Dave Caldwell said on April 28 that the team would not be giving Albert a new contract.

This was 11 days after he and his agent ceased to talk to the Jaguars. They didn’t tell him before that. Or else they would have said something. If they told him before before, why didn’t they just say something when he first didn’t show up, instead of having eleven days of a circus side show where they all shrugged and said “I don’t know what’s going on, we haven’t heard from him”? Also, suprisingly, April 28th is the same day they drafted Cam. Strange how that works.

Also, how exactly do you hold out until the team is willing to talk about a contract when they are calling your agent and you have him not talk? Was he going to find out they changed their stance via osmosis?

Also not sure how Cam telling them it was associated with his injury concerns would be bad. That’s exactly what Marcedes told Marrone, and all Marrone said was “he’ll be here in a couple weeks.” There were 4 other vets who skipped voluntary workouts too. The staff was fine with it. They had no problem giving Calais tons of rest, even after he was healed. 

[.Buzz]

1 minute ago, iPwn said:

From that same article:

This was 11 days after he and his agent ceased to talk to the Jaguars. They didn’t tell him before that. Or else they would have said something. If they told him before before, why didn’t they just say something when he first didn’t show up, instead of having eleven days of a circus side show where they all shrugged and said “I don’t know what’s going on, we haven’t heard from him”? Also, suprisingly, April 28th is the same day they drafted Cam. Strange how that works.

Also, how exactly do you hold out until the team is willing to talk about a contract when they are calling your agent and you have him not talk? Was he going to find out they changed their stance via osmosis?

Also not sure how Cam telling them it was associated with his injury concerns would be bad. That’s exactly what Marcedes told Marrone, and all Marrone said was “he’ll be here in a couple weeks.” There were 4 other vets who skipped voluntary workouts too. The staff was fine with it. They had no problem giving Calais tons of rest, even after he was healed. 

Just going to have to agree to disagree at this point. We are where we are. I'm not going to assume way back in April the Jaguars knew Albert was done/retiring. He made no inkling of that and showed up later and said he was here and ready to go. So there is no proof otherwise besides just assuming that is the case because we're the Jaguars and we make mistakes.

Difference between Marcedes who has been here for over a decade and a brand new LT who doesn't know the playbook and a guy they want to help mentor the young rookie and co. on the roster too. Maybe Marrone wouldn't have cared, but again, outside looking in and assuming is all that is happening here.