What to do about the quarterbacks?

[Doc Draper]

It will be interesting if smith is ready to go. Colt is not going to be the answer ever so trade him for anything. Keenum is intriguing and can be a solid QB, not good enough to win games but won’t lose Games. Some team will want him in a few months so we should consider trading him too

smith? He’s what we all thought- a poor mans Cousins who is a checkdown lime  noodle manager with some mobility. Perfect to give us 8 games and be a mentor for Haskins

haskins? I’m not sold on him. I think he’s more Jason Campbell now than Big Ben at this point, but give him some time to develop and we may get a quality qb. The key is giving the kid time to learn. I have zero confidence that Gruden can develop any QB, so that’s a big strike against him unfortunately as Gruden has never made any qb.better- only worse- yeah dalton included. 

Lets hope we get a 7th for mush head McCoy and a 4 for Keenum and I call that success as next year our new head coach will hopefully know how to develop Haskins 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Doc Draper

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, Doc Draper said:

It will be interesting if smith is ready to go. Colt is not going to be the answer ever so trade him for anything. Keenum is intriguing and can be a solid QB, not good enough to win games but won’t lose Games. Some team will want him in a few months so we should consider trading him too

smith? He’s what we all thought- a poor mans Cousins who is a checkdown lime  noodle manager with some mobility. Perfect to give us 8 games and be a mentor for Haskins

haskins? I’m not sold on him. I think he’s more Jason Campbell now than Big Ben at this point, but give him some time to develop and we may get a quality qb. The key is giving the kid time to learn. I have zero confidence that Gruden can develop any QB, so that’s a big strike against him unfortunately as Gruden has never made any qb.better- only worse- yeah dalton included. 

Lets hope we get a 7th for mush head McCoy and a 4 for Keenum and I call that success as next year our new head coach will hopefully know how to develop Haskins 

My gosh dude!

Gruden developed Dalton and Cousins into  4,000 yard passers playoff caliber QBs. He turned McCoy from a QB who was unemployed into a reliable back up who may be more than that if he could stay healthy.

It’s pretty clear Gruden knows offense and knows how to develop QBs. Your hate for him is blinding reality.

Mush Head McCoy? That’s not funny. 

[Woz]

11 hours ago, Doc Draper said:

It will be interesting if smith is ready to go. Colt is not going to be the answer ever so trade him for anything. Keenum is intriguing and can be a solid QB, not good enough to win games but won’t lose Games. Some team will want him in a few months so we should consider trading him too

smith? He’s what we all thought- a poor mans Cousins who is a checkdown lime  noodle manager with some mobility. Perfect to give us 8 games and be a mentor for Haskins

There is next to no chance that Smith is ready to go this season. We as fans have to accept that Washington will have paid Alex Smith $71M over three years for 10 starts.

11 hours ago, Doc Draper said:

Lets hope we get a 7th for mush head McCoy and a 4 for Keenum and I call that success as next year our new head coach will hopefully know how to develop Haskins 

I think only Keenum has value on the trade block. They might get a 2021 conditional seventh for McCoy. He has more value in Washington as a backup/mentor than as a trade chit.

[MKnight82]

9 minutes ago, Woz said:

I think only Keenum has value on the trade block. They might get a 2021 conditional seventh for McCoy. He has more value in Washington as a backup/mentor than as a trade chit

We essentially swapped a future 6th for a future 7th for Keenum, he doesn't have any trade value IMO.

[Woz]

8 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Gruden developed Dalton and Cousins into  4,000 yard passers playoff caliber QBs.

I'm going to skip over Cousins because I know that discussing him will cause another merry-go-round that I just don't want to deal with. Instead, let's look at the Red Rifle, Andy Dalton.

 

Dalton with Jay Gruden as his OC (2011-2013): 48 GP, 48 GS, 992-1630 (60.9%), 11360 yd (7.0 ypa), 80 TD (4.9 TD%), 49 INT (3.0 INT%), 85.7 RTG

Dalton with Hue Jackson as his OC (2014-2015): 29 GP, 29 GS, 564-867 (65.1%), 6648 yd (7.7 ypa), 44 TD (5.1 TD%), 24 INT (2.8 INT%), 93.6 RTG
Dalton with Ken Zampese(*) as his OC (2016-2017): 18 GP, 18 GS, 400-629 (63.6%), 4600 yd (7.3 ypa), 18 TD (2.9 TD%), 12 INT (1.9 INT%), 87.1 RTG
Dalton with Bill Lazor(*) as his OC (2017-2018): 25 GP, 25 GS, 487-795 (61.3%), 5492 yd (6.9 ypa), 46 TD (5.8 TD%), 19 INT (2.4 INT%), 91.2 RTG

 

So, did Gruden develop Dalton, or luck into a good player?

 

 

(*) Zampese was fired two games into 2017. Lazor then took over and continued to be the OC in 2018.

[RSkinGM]

Wow, did this thread ever get sidetracked ! 

[Woz]

3 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

We essentially swapped a future 6th for a future 7th for Keenum, he doesn't have any trade value IMO.

Probably not, unless some team's QB goes down in training camp. At that point, he has value as a cheap vet who you can conceivably plug in and have the offense go.

[Woz]

46 minutes ago, RSkinGM said:

Wow, did this thread ever get sidetracked ! 

With this crowd? That NEVER happens!  

[Woz]

1 minute ago, Woz said:

49 minutes ago, RSkinGM said:

Wow, did this thread ever get sidetracked ! 

With this crowd? That NEVER happens!  

But with the magic of moderation, I can unsidetrack it!

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, Woz said:

There is next to no chance that Smith is ready to go this season. We as fans have to accept that Washington will have paid Alex Smith $71M over three years for 10 starts.

I think only Keenum has value on the trade block. They might get a 2021 conditional seventh for McCoy. He has more value in Washington as a backup/mentor than as a trade chit.

We were talking about for 2020. It wasn’t clear but Doc was responding to a post I had on the previous page on what they should do vs what I think they will do next year with Alex.

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, Woz said:

I'm going to skip over Cousins because I know that discussing him will cause another merry-go-round that I just don't want to deal with. Instead, let's look at the Red Rifle, Andy Dalton.

 

Dalton with Jay Gruden as his OC (2011-2013): 48 GP, 48 GS, 992-1630 (60.9%), 11360 yd (7.0 ypa), 80 TD (4.9 TD%), 49 INT (3.0 INT%), 85.7 RTG

Dalton with Hue Jackson as his OC (2014-2015): 29 GP, 29 GS, 564-867 (65.1%), 6648 yd (7.7 ypa), 44 TD (5.1 TD%), 24 INT (2.8 INT%), 93.6 RTG
Dalton with Ken Zampese(*) as his OC (2016-2017): 18 GP, 18 GS, 400-629 (63.6%), 4600 yd (7.3 ypa), 18 TD (2.9 TD%), 12 INT (1.9 INT%), 87.1 RTG
Dalton with Bill Lazor(*) as his OC (2017-2018): 25 GP, 25 GS, 487-795 (61.3%), 5492 yd (6.9 ypa), 46 TD (5.8 TD%), 19 INT (2.4 INT%), 91.2 RTG

 

So, did Gruden develop Dalton, or luck into a good player?

 

 

(*) Zampese was fired two games into 2017. Lazor then took over and continued to be the OC in 2018.

Pretty sure Gruden was the one who wanted to draft Dalton in Cincy and was Dalton’s OC the first 3 years of his career before he got hired for the Redskins HC job.

So yeah, Gruden wanted Dalton and developed him the first few years of Dalton’s career.

[Woz]

3 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

We were talking about for 2020. It wasn’t clear but Doc was responding to a post I had on the previous page on what they should do vs what I think they will do next year with Alex.

Okay.

He still won't play in 2020.

[Woz]

3 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Pretty sure Gruden was the one who wanted to draft Dalton in Cincy and was Dalton’s OC the first 3 years of his career before he got hired for the Redskins HC job.

So the first-time OC made the decision to draft Dalton? Really?

EDIT: Jay Gruden was hired on February 3, 2011. The 2011 Draft occurred on April 28-30 (so the 2nd round was on the 29th). So, in a span of two months, a guy who had never coached in the NFL at all was able to convince the franchise to draft "his" QB. Hrmm ...

Edited May 23, 2019 by Woz

[turtle28]

5 hours ago, Woz said:

So the first-time OC made the decision to draft Dalton? Really?

EDIT: Jay Gruden was hired on February 3, 2011. The 2011 Draft occurred on April 28-30 (so the 2nd round was on the 29th). So, in a span of two months, a guy who had never coached in the NFL at all was able to convince the franchise to draft "his" QB. Hrmm ...

I think he had input. And I know he developed him.

[e16bball]

I’ve talked a lot about how drafting a QB outside the top half of the 1st round has become a basically fruitless pursuit in the last decade or so. The fact that essentially every team in the league chose to pass on them means they likely lack *something* necessary to be a good starting QB. 

Of all the QBs selected in that barren wasteland since 2010, only 6 have thrown even 800 passes and been better than league-average (by passer rating). These guys are just not emerging as viable franchise QBs.

And of the top 4 among all those guys, two of them are the two QBs Jay Gruden has featured during his NFL tenure (Cousins and Dalton, of course). In other words, he’s taken two guys nobody really thought much of and — without much of a run game to speak of on either roster — he’s turned them into above-average starting NFL QBs. Put another way, Jay Gruden has developed as many of that top 4 as the rest of the NFL combined.

He’s a good QB coach. You could say he lucked into it, had it just happened once. But he’s now done it twice, when no one else does it, and that’s likely indicative of a true talent for it. We don’t know at this point whether he can turn a great prospect into a great QB — but we know he’s good enough to turn a marginal prospect into a viable (if not quite good enough) long-term starter.