Broncos nearing deal w/ CB Chris Harris Jr. (One-year deal)

[BroncoBruin]

1 hour ago, champ11 said:

I love it. Hopefully the player's union can make some progress in the next deal. As I get older the NFL gets more frustrating for me seeing how the contracts go and the shelf-life of players being so short but I still love this game and this team. 

It gets worse when you start to see your heroes mentally and physically deteriorating as they get older. I think that's made it harder to stick around than anything for me but I just love the sport and team too much. It's such a year-round thing it's hard to get off the train if I even wanted to. 

[BroncoBruin]

1 hour ago, champ11 said:

I've truthfully been mostly emotional with regards to my feelings on CHJ lol. I do think he is a player that will play well into his 30s, though

If I had to guess I think he will play well the next few years too. He's such a savvy, smart player who's never been reliant on long speed. I even think a zone scheme would help extend his prime so he could make a late Hall of Fame push (as unlikely as that is). 

But I wouldn't blame Denver for not being willing to make that bet, though it sucks because he's really been the perfect Bronco. 

[champ11]

12 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

It gets worse when you start to see your heroes mentally and physically deteriorating as they get older. I think that's made it harder to stick around than anything for me but I just love the sport and team too much. It's such a year-round thing it's hard to get off the train if I even wanted to. 

I would love to see the front offices have less leverage. It really is pretty straightforward how to build a great team in the NFL....the amount of incompetent franchises in the NFL with how much leverage they have over the players is truly insane.  Obviously an issue is the lack of talent at QB, though. 

I love the transactional side of sports and it's why I got into the NBA so much more than the NFL. Never thought I'd be more of a Nuggets fan than a Broncos fan, but here we are. 

But yeah I really hope the NFL makes strides towards protecting the players more and helping them after retirement. It's such an insanely huge business and way more of that money should be funneling back towards the players. 

[AKRNA]

1 hour ago, champ11 said:

I would love to see the front offices have less leverage. It really is pretty straightforward how to build a great team in the NFL....the amount of incompetent franchises in the NFL with how much leverage they have over the players is truly insane.  Obviously an issue is the lack of talent at QB, though. 

I love the transactional side of sports and it's why I got into the NBA so much more than the NFL. Never thought I'd be more of a Nuggets fan than a Broncos fan, but here we are. 

But yeah I really hope the NFL makes strides towards protecting the players more and helping them after retirement. It's such an insanely huge business and way more of that money should be funneling back towards the players. 

So, the NFLPA has pretty much gotten every dime they'll get out of the owners. I've read multiple reports that audits confirm that league/team revenue covers nothing more than operating costs. In the revenue stream there is no profit for owners. The only "profit" is a teams increased valuation. Pretty risky business model. It's hard to imagine the players portion of the pie growing much if at all. Percentage wise they're pretty maxed out.

The problem as far as player protections and benefits is 100% in the hands of the NFLPA. They bow to the interests of the upper echelon players every time with little regard for a 7th rd pick struggling to make the team. It's a "zero sum" game. The pie is only so large. 

Phillip Lindsay is a perfect example of the problem. Great, exciting ballplayer at the most dangerous position in the NFL. He's another 3 years away from getting close to security. Knee blows out, multiple concussions, foot problems............ it's a long list. He's just one hit away and has very few protections from the league. CHJ however just added an extra $3 mill to a career that will have paid him over $50 mil by the end of the year. If CHJ gets a career ending injury, oh well. He has no financial issues for the rest of his life. Lindsay get hurt he could be on the street in a tent in a year.

Only the NFLPA can fix that. Until they do the compensation system is horribly flawed.

 

 

[BroncoSojia]

15 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Elway is clearly thinking that by giving Jackson the deal he did, he gets Harris and Jackson for this coming season. If he was to just pay Harris, he'd be locked in for an absolutely minimum of 3 years in my opinion and we wouldn't be able to have any season of having both (Jackson wouldn't have taken a 1 year deal). 

I know it isn't a popular opinion, but with the cap mistakes this team has made and with the lack of (current) talent, is locking CHJ down to a guaranteed 3 year, $50m+ deal really a good move?

I bet there isn't a person on this forum that respects CHJ's game more than me. I've loved him ever since @AntiSuperstar pointed out his gunner prowess in the preseason of his rookie year. But having a 34 year old CB on $15m a year isn't what we need, for me. 

Jackson's deal will end up being a 2 year, $23m deal with no long term ramifications, plus we get a year out of him and CHJ being in the same Defense.

I am not saying I agree with the logic but it's not as simple as saying that Jackson got CHJ's money.

Well, we could've cut Sanders and Wolfe this offseason and saved 16 mil on the cap. That money could've went to CHJ, or any of the players from the 2016 draft that are in the last year of their contract. (Simmons, Parks, Gotsis, and McGovern)  Good GMs don't leave money tied up in old and injury prone players like that. 

This entire offseason (aside from Lock, which I think was a purely BPA pick) has been about Elway desperately trying to get us back to the playoffs this year at the expense of the future. This myopic view instead of just rebuilding is how teams in our situation stay constantly mediocre.

Edit: and if we wanted a safety, why not sign Amos over Kareem Jackson? He's familiar with Fangio's defense, younger, and cheaper than what we paid for Jackson. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by BroncoSojia

[lomaxgrUK]

On 01/06/2019 at 12:03 AM, BroncoSojia said:

Well, we could've cut Sanders and Wolfe this offseason and saved 16 mil on the cap. That money could've went to CHJ, or any of the players from the 2016 draft that are in the last year of their contract. (Simmons, Parks, Gotsis, and McGovern)  Good GMs don't leave money tied up in old and injury prone players like that. 

This entire offseason (aside from Lock, which I think was a purely BPA pick) has been about Elway desperately trying to get us back to the playoffs this year at the expense of the future. This myopic view instead of just rebuilding is how teams in our situation stay constantly mediocre.

Edit: and if we wanted a safety, why not sign Amos over Kareem Jackson? He's familiar with Fangio's defense, younger, and cheaper than what we paid for Jackson. 

How could we possibly cut Sanders? Our WR core is so inexperienced and so thin. He's the only proven, legitimate target we have. Not to mention his hunger, desire and work ethic is an example for the rest of the roster to follow.

Again, we're very thin at DE so cutting Wolfe would be very difficult for us to do. If 2 (maybe even 1) of our younger depth guys (Jones, Williams, Sizer) show they can play early then who knows - Wolfe might get cut. However, there's no way we could cut him without bringing in someone to match his production at a position where we've struggled at times.

Neither of these players are a long term burden for the team; both of their contracts are up at the end of the year, so how have we got money tied up in them? Also, Sanders isn't injury prone. Harris was the one who played with injuries last year, yet you want to tie us down to him when he is 30 in 3 weeks.

I've absolutely no clue how good of a player Adrian Amos is. But, you can ask that question in a different tone. Given that Fangio has worked closely with Amos, why wouldn't he sign him?

I am far from an Elway apologist and I think a lot of people in this forum will attest to that. But the criticism has to be legitimate. Next year, our cap situation looks good when we cut Leary (frees up $8.5m for a $880k hit) and potentially Flacco ($20m with no hit).

Edited June 3, 2019 by lomaxgrUK

[BroncoSojia]

9 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

How could we possibly cut Sanders? Our WR core is so inexperienced and so thin. He's the only proven, legitimate target we have. Not to mention his hunger, desire and work ethic is an example for the rest of the roster to follow.

Again, we're very thin at DE so cutting Wolfe would be very difficult for us to do. If 2 (maybe even 1) of our younger depth guys (Jones, Williams, Sizer) show they can play early then who knows - Wolfe might get cut. However, there's no way we could cut him without bringing in someone to match his production at a position where we've struggled at times.

Neither of these players are a long term burden for the team; both of their contracts are up at the end of the year, so how have we got money tied up in them? Also, Sanders isn't injury prone. Harris was the one who played with injuries last year, yet you want to tie us down to him when he is 30 in 3 weeks.

I've absolutely no clue how good of a player Adrian Amos is. But, you can ask that question in a different tone. Given that Fangio has worked closely with Amos, why wouldn't he sign him?

I am far from an Elway apologist and I think a lot of people in this forum will attest to that. But the criticism has to be legitimate. Next year, our cap situation looks good when we cut Leary (frees up $8.5m for a $880k hit) and potentially Flacco ($20m with no hit).

Sanders is 32 and coming off an Achilles injury and in 2017, he missed a bunch of games. We should not be paying a player at that age and with his injury history, 12 mil a year. Wolfe is in a similar situation. We needed to free up money to pay young players like Parks, Simmons, Gotsis, and McGovern before they hit FA. If Parks and Simmons leaves, along with CHJ, we're going to need to rebuild our entire secondary in 2020. I mean, unless you have faith in Yaidom and Kareem Jackson. (which I don't) Gotsis and McGovern leaving just adds to the growing amount of needs that we would have on this team.

Just about all of the moves this offseason by Elway points to him desperately trying to make the playoffs this year at the expense of the future of the team. E.I. Bringing in or keeping older veteran players at huge salaries, (Flacco, Jackson, Wolfe, Sanders) or refusing to trade a player that's not going to be here next year because he helps you win this year. (CHJ) It's all going to blow up in his face. We're not going to make the playoffs this year and we're going to be in a worse situation talent-wise next year.

 

Good thing we picked Lock in the 2nd or else we'd be really screwed right now.

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by BroncoSojia

[BroncoSojia]

BTW, I would definitely rather have Amos over Jackson, and I'm sure a lot of other people would. You say you're not an apologist for Elway but you're sure sounding like it.

Edited June 3, 2019 by BroncoSojia

[broncofan48]

1 hour ago, BroncoSojia said:

BTW, I would definitely rather have Amos over Jackson, and I'm sure a lot of other people would. You say you're not an apologist for Elway but you're sure sounding like it.

While I also would prefer Amos, you’re assuming Elway didn’t listen to any input from Fangio (he might not have). If Fangio was fine with Jackson over Amos you can’t really blame Elway

[BroncoBruin]

It's possible that Amos is a better player, though Jackson easily had the better season last year. What can't be argued is you can do more to confuse offenses with Kareem because he can play anywhere in the secondary. 

Splitting hairs between two good football players there. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by BroncoBruin

[germ-x]

7 hours ago, BroncoSojia said:

BTW, I would definitely rather have Amos over Jackson, and I'm sure a lot of other people would. You say you're not an apologist for Elway but you're sure sounding like it.

 Vic Fangio coached Amos in Chicago and I’d be incredibly surprised if Fangio didn’t have a say in the FA signings, especially on the defensive side of the ball.  IMO, Fangio prefered Jackson to Amos and is probably the biggest reason Denver went Jackson > Amos, especially at the money Jackson commanded.  Jackson offers versatility Amos doesn’t and versatility in today’s NFL is more valuable than ever.  It could’ve been a bad move because I really like Amos and he’s an exceptional safety who can cover and is as sure a tackler as they come, plus he was cheaper and younger.  On the flip side though, Jackson can play outside CB, nickel CB, Safety, and has been arguably the best run defending CB in football through the years.  The age and price are what hang me up with this signing, but Fangio is regarded as defensive mastermind and I don’t doubt for a second he didn’t have a lot of influence with this signing, so I’m not going to complain yet.

[lomaxgrUK]

16 hours ago, BroncoSojia said:

Sanders is 32 and coming off an Achilles injury and in 2017, he missed a bunch of games. We should not be paying a player at that age and with his injury history, 12 mil a year. Wolfe is in a similar situation. We needed to free up money to pay young players like Parks, Simmons, Gotsis, and McGovern before they hit FA. If Parks and Simmons leaves, along with CHJ, we're going to need to rebuild our entire secondary in 2020. I mean, unless you have faith in Yaidom and Kareem Jackson. (which I don't) Gotsis and McGovern leaving just adds to the growing amount of needs that we would have on this team.

Just about all of the moves this offseason by Elway points to him desperately trying to make the playoffs this year at the expense of the future of the team. E.I. Bringing in or keeping older veteran players at huge salaries, (Flacco, Jackson, Wolfe, Sanders) or refusing to trade a player that's not going to be here next year because he helps you win this year. (CHJ) It's all going to blow up in his face. We're not going to make the playoffs this year and we're going to be in a worse situation talent-wise next year.

 

Good thing we picked Lock in the 2nd or else we'd be really screwed right now.

 

Sanders signed his (incredibly) team friendly extension in September 2016. He hadn't missed a single game at that point, and didn't for his first 3 years here. Is Elway supposed to see into the future and know he'd tear his Achilles two years later? He's the 14th highest paid WR which is absolutely fair for his production and what he brings to the table as a player. Before he tore his Achilles, he was angling for MORE money yet you're saying he's overpaid .....

Not a single one of those young players has shown they are worthy of committing long term money to besides maybe Gotsis, who runs hot and cold. Simmons took a huge step back last year, Parks still can't find a way on to the field with any consistency and McGovern hasn't proven himself as anything other than an average starter. And yes - this is an indictment of Elway's very poor drafts in the few years prior to 2018. Our secondary last year was below average at very, very best so no - I wouldn't be remotely bothered about blowing it up if it came to that.

Once again,  you're ignoring my factual points. You have said that Elway is risking the long term well being off the team for this year but you've offered nothing in response to my point that next year, we stand to be in a good cap position. Would I like to use that money to perhaps front load a deal for CHJ to keep him? Yes, absolutely and I don't think that is out of the question. But he's made it abundantly clear he wants to test the open market and he would be foolish not to.

This narrative that Elway is mortgaging our future for this year is just factually incorrect. If that was the case, why did he trade down in the draft this year to gain a 3rd round pick next year?

Edited June 4, 2019 by lomaxgrUK

[BroncoSojia]

6 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Sanders signed his (incredibly) team friendly extension in September 2016. He hadn't missed a single game at that point, and didn't for his first 3 years here. Is Elway supposed to see into the future and know he'd tear his Achilles two years later? He's the 14th highest paid WR which is absolutely fair for his production and what he brings to the table as a player. Before he tore his Achilles, he was angling for MORE money yet you're saying he's overpaid .....

We had a team option for Sanders this year that could've saved us 8 mil on the cap if we declined it. I don't know why you're bringing up 2016 in regards to the present, because right now, he's 32 and he's been injured the past two years.

6 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Not a single one of those young players has shown they are worthy of committing long term money to besides maybe Gotsis, who runs hot and cold. Simmons took a huge step back last year, Parks still can't find a way on to the field with any consistency and McGovern hasn't proven himself as anything other than an average starter. And yes - this is an indictment of Elway's very poor drafts in the few years prior to 2018. Our secondary last year was below average at very, very best so no - I wouldn't be remotely bothered about blowing it up if it came to that.

Parks was our most improved player last year, according to PFF. He's an ascending player that can play single high and in the box. BSN Broncos (if you follow them) had him rated pretty highly and said that he came on strong in the later part of the season. His only issue is that he kinda struggles in man coverage. He one of the very few young players with potential that we have so we need to keep him. Simmons issues is kinda the opposite of Parks, in that he gets lost in space, but is good in man coverage. Us losing those two, along with Gotsis and McGovern means we would have needs at SS/FS, two CB spots, (assuming CHJ is gone) at least one ILB spot, D-line, center, and guard. We should've offered our some of the younger guys mid-lower tier contracts, so if/when they breakout, we'd have them on decent contracts. No chance of that now since all of them will be FAs at the end of the year and because we have just about all of our money tied up in older veterans.

 

6 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Once again,  you're ignoring my factual points. You have said that Elway is risking the long term well being off the team for this year but you've offered nothing in response to my point that next year, we stand to be in a good cap position. Would I like to use that money to perhaps front load a deal for CHJ to keep him? Yes, absolutely and I don't think that is out of the question. But he's made it abundantly clear he wants to test the open market and he would be foolish not to.

This narrative that Elway is mortgaging our future for this year is just factually incorrect. If that was the case, why did he trade down in the draft this year to gain a 3rd round pick next year?

Not resigning the few young players we have before they hit FA, tying up most of our money in older veterans, and refusing to get something in a trade for a great player that's going to leave in FA next year is myopic and shortsighted as hell, but "mortgaging the future" might be a bit strong. It's just going to make the rebuild harder in the coming years.

[germ-x]

9 hours ago, BroncoSojia said:

Not resigning the few young players we have before they hit FA, tying up most of our money in older veterans, and refusing to get something in a trade for a great player that's going to leave in FA next year is myopic and shortsighted as hell, but "mortgaging the future" might be a bit strong. It's just going to make the rebuild harder in the coming years.

I think you’re over blowing this a bit.  For starters, the young players you want extended aren’t better than average and average is probably being generous.  Gotsis is a solid run defender, has flashed getting to the QB here and there, but thus far hasn’t shown much outside of being a nice rotational/depth piece, Parks is in that same boat.  He’s flashed some, adds versatility and depth at DB as he can play some nickel CB and safety, but I think you’re a bit ahead of yourself on him, he’s physically limited. As far as Simmons, he’s proven to be a borderline starter, has some nice flashes, but leaves a lot to be desired.  In the case of all 3 I wouldn’t offer them any more than borderline starter/rotational money.  They haven’t done anything to warrant more than that.  

The name you’re leaving off and by far the best young player Denver has hitting the market next year is Shelby Harris.  However, even he is a risk this early in the process as he hasn’t had any sustained success in the NFL.

As far as money tied up in older players, that really only applies to Flacco, Wolfe, Harris, Sanders, Jackson as of right now. Denver can cut Flacco at any point without any dead money, he’s literally all reward and no risk (especially with Lock sitting behind him, but I’ll get into that later).  Wolfe is a FA at the end of the year, it’s not like he’s on a long term contract, yes Denver could cut him, but why? To sign someone else this year to try and compete?  Or to shell out money to all those young players you mentioned who are borderline starters?  Denver can just let him walk next year and the money can be used the same way (this same point goes with Sanders as well). Denver could trade Harris, but who knows what they’ve been offered and holding onto him until the trade deadline when teams are looking to make moves to gain a playoff edge may be the smart play if he is traded (though I doubt he is).  Further, they can let him walk and use the money elsewhere next year.  But to disprove your point the only money tied up long term on an older veteran is with Jackson, basically Denver has no money tied up in older veterans, everyone but Jackson is on the last year of their deal.

Now, I think Elway has done an exceptional job of balancing being competitive and building for the future, which I have been pleasantly surprised by as he’s seemed to be in win now mode.  The 2019 draft is a perfect example of this.  Noah Fant is not a “win now” selection.  He’ll contribute this year and I think he can have a better than average year for a rookie TE in this system, but TEs typically take 1, 2, sometimes more years before they really hit their stride, I know many believe it’s the 2nd most difficult position to learn in the NFL after QB.  The Drew Lock pick was not a “win now” pick, that was a future pick, clearly and I don’t think I have to go into why.  

At the end of the day Elway has set this team up to be as competitive as possible now as well as did a fantastic job of setting them up for the future with a young QB and the potential to use money for 2020 to sign players already on the roster or target FA.

[AKRNA]

2 hours ago, germ-x said:

I think you’re over blowing this a bit.  For starters, the young players you want extended aren’t better than average and average is probably being generous.  Gotsis is a solid run defender, has flashed getting to the QB here and there, but thus far hasn’t shown much outside of being a nice rotational/depth piece, Parks is in that same boat.  He’s flashed some, adds versatility and depth at DB as he can play some nickel CB and safety, but I think you’re a bit ahead of yourself on him, he’s physically limited. As far as Simmons, he’s proven to be a borderline starter, has some nice flashes, but leaves a lot to be desired.  In the case of all 3 I wouldn’t offer them any more than borderline starter/rotational money.  They haven’t done anything to warrant more than that.  

The name you’re leaving off and by far the best young player Denver has hitting the market next year is Shelby Harris.  However, even he is a risk this early in the process as he hasn’t had any sustained success in the NFL.

As far as money tied up in older players, that really only applies to Flacco, Wolfe, Harris, Sanders, Jackson as of right now. Denver can cut Flacco at any point without any dead money, he’s literally all reward and no risk (especially with Lock sitting behind him, but I’ll get into that later).  Wolfe is a FA at the end of the year, it’s not like he’s on a long term contract, yes Denver could cut him, but why? To sign someone else this year to try and compete?  Or to shell out money to all those young players you mentioned who are borderline starters?  Denver can just let him walk next year and the money can be used the same way (this same point goes with Sanders as well). Denver could trade Harris, but who knows what they’ve been offered and holding onto him until the trade deadline when teams are looking to make moves to gain a playoff edge may be the smart play if he is traded (though I doubt he is).  Further, they can let him walk and use the money elsewhere next year.  But to disprove your point the only money tied up long term on an older veteran is with Jackson, basically Denver has no money tied up in older veterans, everyone but Jackson is on the last year of their deal.

Now, I think Elway has done an exceptional job of balancing being competitive and building for the future, which I have been pleasantly surprised by as he’s seemed to be in win now mode.  The 2019 draft is a perfect example of this.  Noah Fant is not a “win now” selection.  He’ll contribute this year and I think he can have a better than average year for a rookie TE in this system, but TEs typically take 1, 2, sometimes more years before they really hit their stride, I know many believe it’s the 2nd most difficult position to learn in the NFL after QB.  The Drew Lock pick was not a “win now” pick, that was a future pick, clearly and I don’t think I have to go into why.  

At the end of the day Elway has set this team up to be as competitive as possible now as well as did a fantastic job of setting them up for the future with a young QB and the potential to use money for 2020 to sign players already on the roster or target FA.

You forgot Von. I really can't see Denver paying him $73 million for the next 3 years.