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Official 2020 QB Thread


CalhounLambeau

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8 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

He had 855 yards as a freshman. Obviously he wasn't NFL prospect good but the fact that he was even able to play WR in college and put up solid numbers shows his athleticism, 

and herbert ran only 0.03 seconds slower at 15 pounds heavier, while having pretty damn good agility and explosion numbers. not even close to a stretch to say they're similar athletically

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9 minutes ago, ScoDucks823 said:

and herbert ran only 0.03 seconds slower at 15 pounds heavier, while having pretty damn good agility and explosion numbers. not even close to a stretch to say they're similar athletically

I never said they weren't close athletically I just don't think that Herbert is a more athletic version of Tannehill. 

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1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

I never said they weren't close athletically I just don't think that Herbert is a more athletic version of Tannehill. 

And how much of Tannehill's athleticism has translated to the football field as a QB? 

Who's a more athletic QB: Ryan Tannehill or Justin Herbert? While yes, Tannehill technically is athletic with his background and testing numbers, he's just decent on the football field when it comes to his athleticism. Maybe it's due to injuries; regardless, Herbert is a more athletic version of Tannehill TODAY. He has a better frame, better size, better arm, and nearly identical testing numbers. That points to him being a better athlete, IMO. 

If better athlete isn't right for you, how about "bigger and stronger?" 

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3 hours ago, NYRaider said:

I never said they weren't close athletically I just don't think that Herbert is a more athletic version of Tannehill. 

i mean, saying that there's no way herbert is more athletic than tannehill isn't a far cry from that, but i'll give it to you. I think it's a pretty easy argument to make that Herbert is more athletic than tannehill when you consider their workout numbers are essentially identical with herbert carrying more weight. also, his agility numbers at his height are pretty remarkable.

the offense (which just about every oregon fan hated) de-emphasized this aspect of his game, despite us having a great run blocking line and god-awful receivers (outside of pittman who was a freshman and injured much of the season). 

i honestly think Herbert is the toughest QB to scout this year because the offense was so poorly designed/ predictable and his weapons were mediocre. eason also had bad weapons but the offensive design was much better. i understand not liking him as a prospect but to downplay his athleticism is not the part to criticize

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6 hours ago, ScoDucks823 said:

and herbert ran only 0.03 seconds slower at 15 pounds heavier, while having pretty damn good agility and explosion numbers. not even close to a stretch to say they're similar athletically

Herbert ran a 4.68 40 at the Combine. Tannehill ran a 4.58 to 4.62 40 at his Pro Day (depending on the source). As @NYRaider pointed out, Tannehill was an effective WR in a FBS conference before moving to QB. Putting aside arm talent, he was the better athlete. Adding arm talent into the equation makes it a tougher call.

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2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Herbert ran a 4.68 40 at the Combine. Tannehill ran a 4.58 to 4.62 40 at his Pro Day (depending on the source). As @NYRaider pointed out, Tannehill was an effective WR in a FBS conference before moving to QB. Putting aside arm talent, he was the better athlete. Adding arm talent into the equation makes it a tougher call.

tannehill ran a 4.65 at the combine, herbert didn't run at his pro day. if we're going to compare numbers then you have to go apples to apples

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Just now, ScoDucks823 said:

tannehill ran a 4.65 at the combine, herbert didn't run at his pro day. if we're going to compare numbers then you have to go apples to apples

Tannehill didn't run at the Combine due to a broken foot.

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2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Tannehill didn't run at the Combine due to a broken foot.

my mistake, i saw on profootballreference and a few other spots that he ran a 4.65, not sure where they get that number. still, the split between those numbers isn't significant when you consider the weight difference and that players almost always run better at their pro days. herbert is a phenomenal athlete and is at least on par with tannehill when you look at the whole package

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On 4/2/2020 at 3:12 PM, HoboRocket said:

Herbert is a more athletic Ryan Tannehill. That's my final comp.

I agree with @ScoDucks823 that Herbert really has made a living off of touch passes. He's experiencing a sort of prospect fatigue, the same way Andrew Thomas is, but Herbert isn't the elite prospect that Thomas is. Herbert has really nice athleticism, a good frame, and a big arm. But he's not Eason, where he doesn't know how to use tempo with his passes. Herbert just hasn't put it all together. It's like Tannehill, where you can't really put your finger on what's holding him back from being a good starter. But they'll also both get really hot at times and be deadly.

 

Now, I actually think Eason outplayed Herbert when the two teams faced off this year, but Eason is extremely raw. He's more of a thrower than a pitcher at this point. Most pitchers have an array of pitches, where they might have any number of a 2-seam, 4-seam, curveball, screwball, breaking ball, cutter, slider, etc. A lot of your young guys in the minors, though, just throw a 2-seam or 4-seam fastball on almost every play and MIGHT mix in a curveball every once in a while. That's where Eason is at in his QB development at this point. He's got a rocket arm, but he's overconfident in it, leading to poor lower-body mechanics. Yes, the ball can get to someone from almost anywhere on the field based on his arm alone, but he doesn't follow through and throws flat-footed a lot due to his reliance on his arm. He also doesn't pass consistently to the left side of the field because he doesn't follow through properly with his footwork, so he loses his balance and passes go scattershot to that side fairly often. 

He's a whiz coming off of play action and pre-snap motion. He's very convincing with his fakes, including pump fakes and fake hand-offs, and he whips his head around quickly to read the field off of those sets. However, on normal plays, you don't see the same mental processing from him. On a psychological level, perhaps it's because he feels pressure to process quicker when he uses time early in the play to fake, but he doesn't feel the same urgency on normal plays. Or perhaps he's simply less confident without using trickery on the defense and feels TOO MUCH pressure to make the right read on true passing plays. Regardless, he locks onto receivers too often on normal passing plays and doesn't always comprehend what the defense is doing. 

Eason throws with great anticipation at times, and when he's on, his game is a thing of beauty. He is superb at picking where a receiver is going to be coming out of a break and throwing the pass to hit them just in time downfield. However, since most of his passes are thrown with more velocity than necessary, he can be scattershot in the shorter and intermediate areas of the field and his receivers have lots of drops where he just punishes his guys with the football. 

Eason has a football pedigree (his dad played WR for Notre Dame), so it's not like he hasn't gotten any training. In fact, his father has worked with him extensively over the years, even playing him at OL in his youth so that he's understand blocking assignments. He was one of the most-hyped High School Freshmen in the country, and the same applies to when he entered college at Georgia. He's had plenty of coaching but still has plenty of warts, so despite being raw, maybe his ability to absorb coaching will prevent his ceiling from being as high as we think it is. At the very least, I think he's a better version of Cardale Jones in every way and will earn a shot to start at QB, but he will need to show progression to keep me interested once he's in the league.

He reminds me so much of Jay Cutler. It's kinda scary. 

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On 4/7/2020 at 4:08 PM, ScoDucks823 said:

i honestly think Herbert is the toughest QB to scout this year because the offense was so poorly designed/ predictable and his weapons were mediocre. eason also had bad weapons but the offensive design was much better.

I agree Herbert is toughest to scout. It looks increasingly possible that the Dolphins might bypass Tua. If so, I've got to acknowledge Herbert could be the pick. That would be maddening given the similarities to Tannehill. But at least Herbert seemingly has room to mentally snap out of it when allowed a more friendly offense, looking downfield to touchdown-check down instead of the opposite of all the sideways reliance. 

Actually I think the Cristobal approach is absolutely necessary to make Oregon more nationally viable. So rugged on offense. I am jealous as a Canes fan. Cristobal apparently wanted that Miami job years ago but we went elsewhere. The prior Oregon approach might have been fun to watch but it required the perfect opponent. You nearly had it in Auburn 2010. That Auburn team had the worst pass defense (7.0 YPA) of any national champion in the modern era. Once Oregon fell narrowly short in that game I thought the steady collapse was inevitable. 

Last year in the opener you pushed Auburn around physically for the majority of the game. Just too darn bad the lousy offensive scheme played such a role in the 4th quarter. Top SEC defenses always allow the underneath catch and run stuff early in the game then steadily clamp down and wipe it out as the game reaches more critical stages. I'll never forget the look on Sam Bradford's face when Florida did that in the 2008 national championship game. Bradford seemed to believe that it was a legitimately unfair tactic. After all, Big 12 defenses don't challenge those plays at all. 

Auburn started to take away the cheap stuff late in the 3rd quarter of that Oregon/Auburn game last season. Oregon still led but it was going to be an interesting test for both Herbert and Cristobal. I was wondering if they were going to figure it out and become more aggressive. Nope. They idiotically continued to rely on the short designs. Auburn rotated forward and absolutely salivated to destroy those plays, while reversing the energy level and physical pecking order. The outcome seemed inevitable once that trend was fully established, even though it took until the final minute or so. I've seen it so many times so I knew what to expect. Auburn did essentially the same thing to Washington a year earlier, overcoming a deficit. 

Anyway, I'd say Tannehill might be somewhat more athletic than Herbert but he is also less inclined to unleash and use it. There has always been a hesitancy in Tannehill's game. Last year for the first time he seemed to be more animated when he was escaping pressure. He'll never have the pocket instincts to do that dependably but at last last season with the Titans when Tannehill sensed he was avoiding he picked up the pace, and once settled he looked downfield for a dagger throw. With the Dolphins too often Tannehill would wander then collapse. 

I wish Herbert were not 6 foot 6. That lends to the erratic throws, IMO, namely the sometimes inexplicable ones into the dirt. At that height too many things can go wrong, just like taller golfers have more difficulty with a consistently repetitive swing. Normally the quarterback warning signs are 6-7 and taller. I'm never thrilled with 6-6. There aren't too many successful examples up there. 

Somewhere I saw this list as the 6-6 and taller quarterbacks at the combine since 1999:

Paxton Lynch

Brock Osweiler

Mike Glennon

Ryan Mallett

Joe Flacco

Tony Pike

Sean Mannion

Tyler Bray

Jamarcus Russell

Byron Leftwich

Derek Anderson

Nate Sudfeld

John Skelton

Josh Freeman

Jordan Palmer

Eric Ainge

John Navarre

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30 minutes ago, Awsi Dooger said:

I agree Herbert is toughest to scout. It looks increasingly possible that the Dolphins might bypass Tua. If so, I've got to acknowledge Herbert could be the pick. That would be maddening given the similarities to Tannehill. But at least Herbert seemingly has room to mentally snap out of it when allowed a more friendly offense, looking downfield to touchdown-check down instead of the opposite of all the sideways reliance. 

Actually I think the Cristobal approach is absolutely necessary to make Oregon more nationally viable. So rugged on offense. I am jealous as a Canes fan. Cristobal apparently wanted that Miami job years ago but we went elsewhere. The prior Oregon approach might have been fun to watch but it required the perfect opponent. You nearly had it in Auburn 2010. That Auburn team had the worst pass defense (7.0 YPA) of any national champion in the modern era. Once Oregon fell narrowly short in that game I thought the steady collapse was inevitable. 

Last year in the opener you pushed Auburn around physically for the majority of the game. Just too darn bad the lousy offensive scheme played such a role in the 4th quarter. Top SEC defenses always allow the underneath catch and run stuff early in the game then steadily clamp down and wipe it out as the game reaches more critical stages. I'll never forget the look on Sam Bradford's face when Florida did that in the 2008 national championship game. Bradford seemed to believe that it was a legitimately unfair tactic. After all, Big 12 defenses don't challenge those plays at all. 

Auburn started to take away the cheap stuff late in the 3rd quarter of that Oregon/Auburn game last season. Oregon still led but it was going to be an interesting test for both Herbert and Cristobal. I was wondering if they were going to figure it out and become more aggressive. Nope. They idiotically continued to rely on the short designs. Auburn rotated forward and absolutely salivated to destroy those plays, while reversing the energy level and physical pecking order. The outcome seemed inevitable once that trend was fully established, even though it took until the final minute or so. I've seen it so many times so I knew what to expect. Auburn did essentially the same thing to Washington a year earlier, overcoming a deficit. 

Anyway, I'd say Tannehill might be somewhat more athletic than Herbert but he is also less inclined to unleash and use it. There has always been a hesitancy in Tannehill's game. Last year for the first time he seemed to be more animated when he was escaping pressure. He'll never have the pocket instincts to do that dependably but at last last season with the Titans when Tannehill sensed he was avoiding he picked up the pace, and once settled he looked downfield for a dagger throw. With the Dolphins too often Tannehill would wander then collapse. 

I wish Herbert were not 6 foot 6. That lends to the erratic throws, IMO, namely the sometimes inexplicable ones into the dirt. At that height too many things can go wrong, just like taller golfers have more difficulty with a consistently repetitive swing. Normally the quarterback warning signs are 6-7 and taller. I'm never thrilled with 6-6. There aren't too many successful examples up there. 

Somewhere I saw this list as the 6-6 and taller quarterbacks at the combine since 1999:

Paxton Lynch

Brock Osweiler

Mike Glennon

Ryan Mallett

Joe Flacco

Tony Pike

Sean Mannion

Tyler Bray

Jamarcus Russell

Byron Leftwich

Derek Anderson

Nate Sudfeld

John Skelton

Josh Freeman

Jordan Palmer

Eric Ainge

John Navarre

My criticism isn't of Cristobal, but of Arroyo (every duck fan was happy to see him leave). I think Cristobal is doing a great job of being a true CEO type and his recruiting (specifically in the trenches which you eluded to a bit with the rugged comment) has put us a step above the rest of the conference for the foreseeable future. I'm really excited to see what Moorhead brings to the table from an offensive creativity standpoint. No more throwing the same tunnel screen 4 times in a row and running our smaller running backs straight down the middle 15 times a game. The offense really wasn't tailored to Herbert's strengths, which was partially due to the lack of downfield weapons, but it was so frustrating to watch us constantly dink and dunk with such a talented down field thrower under center. It's not going to happen, but I'd love to see him in Carolina with Joe Brady. Yes it's an offense that relied heavily on the mid range and short game but they still took well-timed shots downfield and utilized the seams well with their slot guys (which i've already said was a big strength of herbert when Breeland was available). 

That list is definitely converning, but I think Herbert is generally more accurate and/or athletic than those guys listed. Certainly not an encouraging group to be lumped in with though.

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4 minutes ago, HoboRocket said:

Is Joe Burrow on par with Peyton Manning? Manning is my best comp for Burrow.

I try to stay away from comparisons with some of the best ever with prospects but for me, I see a lot of Brady in Burrow. The way he subtly moves in the pocket to find space to throw, incredible ball placement, utilization of slot guys, arm strength not a huge part of their games but can put zip on it when they need to, and that killer instinct. obviously different from an athleticism standpoint but after that texas game it was hard for me to not see it

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