QB self inflicted sacks and OL rankings

[ninjapirate]

46 minutes ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Interesting project. I’d honestly prefer a subjective eye test here than just saying “3+ seconds to throw=QB’s fault”

 

For Eagles, doesn’t surprise me to see Foles high up there. Holding onto the ball has always been one of his key issues. Wentz definitely prevents several more sacks than he creates, but I’d have sworn he was responsible for more than just 2 sacks since he can go hero mode. Also only 17th ranked OL? Guessing that’s straight from FO.

yeah I'd expect a hobbled improviser to be responsible for more of his own sacks. 

[William Lee]

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

@plan9misfit => You remember when you told me that "Dak has a much better supporting cast than Brady" and I said that our OL/WR/TE's sucked compared to theirs?

They had the #1 OL. Responsible for 18 sacks.

We had the #28 OL. Responsible for 43 sacks. Thats a 250% increase.

Dont you value the trenches? Or no? You dont think the OL matters?

It really is amazing that Dak and Brady had identical stats once we traded for Cooper. #justsaying

(again, Brady is >> Dak. Dak did close out the year very strong though.... once he wasnt surrounded by complete trash). 

Among all QB in NFL history, Brady needs least protection, because :

1. It takes less time to run 5 yards than to run 15 yards.
2. The smaller pockets a QB needs, the easier for his O-line to protect him.
3. No team can put 5 pass rushers against Brady.

#1 and #2 should be common sense.

Actually, running QB needs far more protections than a QB who stays in pockets (unless his team doesn't mind he is out half of the seasons), because the O-line that O-linemen have to hold is very very long and O-linemen don't know where their QB is and don't know when their QB is going to run out of pockets (left or right? no clue, so they have to hold pass rushers in front of them).

If a QB stays in small pockets and get rid of balls quickly, all his O-linemen have to do is to push pass rushers aside, but if O-linemen don't know where his QB is, he has to hold pass rushers in front of him.

Short O-line for small pockets, long O-line for big pockets; holding less than 3 seconds vs holding over 4 seconds; pushing pass rushers aside vs holding pass rushers in front of him, get the picture?

Lot of time, those running QBs have to run because pass rushers push the O-linemen back onto him. Why don't his O-linemen just push the pass rushers aside? because they can't, because their QB needs big pockets and the pass rushers will run around them.

You think Rodgers can throw good on the run if pass rushers just 2 yards away? Ya, maybe he can but will be hit immediately by pass rushers on full speed (as Rodgers has to slow down a bit when he throws) and he better retires now.

Edited June 7, 2019 by William Lee

[Jlowe22]

Why isn't Mariota or Brees listed?

[SkippyX]

This is just a weird statistic. I'd call this a 2nd level statistical breakdown that explains very little without including the QB's elusiveness as the 3rd level.

There are lots of plays where the line plays terribly and should give up a sack but a superior QB evades the sack and makes a play.

• Wilson probably has 25 of these a year. Watson does similar things.

Take a look at the 4th down play in SB LII where maitre d Big V tells a couple of Patriots: "This way to the QB my good men." but Foles evades them, finds a throwing lane, and makes the play. That grades out as a Z- for the LT on the play but the result is a drive extender and a bunch of rings. No sack is recorded on that play so it would not show up as a negative statistic for the O-line.

 

There are also a bunch of plays where the lineman gets beat a bit too soon but puts up a fight and the QB should do a bit more to evade the sack.

In 2014 Foles got sacked 9 times in about 328 drop backs and Sanchez got sacked 23 times in about 350 drop backs.

• If anything the line was worse for Foles (injuries early in the season) bt sanchez is really bad at avoiding pressure and Foles is very good at it.

Guys like Brady and Roethlisberger will dance around behind bad lines to give themselves another second to make the big play.

• Pretending that poor Dak has worse players is just foolish. Its possible he's just a bad QB.

Edited August 17, 2019 by SkippyX

[candyman93]

Makes sense.

 

Browns offensive line was awful under Hue, but played phenomenal once Freddie took over. Which balances out to being average.

[Matts4313]

13 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Guys like Brady and Roethlisberger will dance around behind bad lines to give themselves another second to make the big play.

Brady and Ben almost never had "bad" OL

13 hours ago, SkippyX said:

• Pretending that poor Dak has worse players is just foolish. Its possible he's just a bad QB.

Dumb response. Daks OL has been terrible (at pass blocking) to anyone with eyes.

[Steelersfan43]

Just now, Matts4313 said:

Brady and Ben almost never had "bad" OL

Dumb response. Daks OL has been terrible (at pass blocking) to anyone with eyes.

Almost never had a bad o-line for Ben?

Between 2007 to 2013, the Steelers O-line was a big weakness for the steelers, so much that Roethlisberger is at 25 sacks away to be the most sacked QB in NFL history.Of course, it was not always the fault of his O-line but at the same time, this o-line was still bad.

For Brady, I can say that in 2015, the o-line of the pats was not good and that it was the big reason why the Pats lost in Denver ... Belichick had fired his O-line coach the day after the game against Denver in the Playoffs.

[Hunter2_1]

On 07/06/2019 at 12:49 AM, RandyMossIsBoss said:

 

 

For Eagles, doesn’t surprise me to see Foles high up there. 

It does surprise me that they've ranked the OL as 17th though. They're the best, IMO.

[Hunter2_1]

48 minutes ago, Steelersfan43 said:

Almost never had a bad o-line for Ben?

Between 2007 to 2013, the Steelers O-line was a big weakness for the steelers, so much that Roethlisberger is at 25 sacks away to be the most sacked QB in NFL history.Of course, it was not always the fault of his O-line but at the same time, this o-line was still bad.

For Brady, I can say that in 2015, the o-line of the pats was not good and that it was the big reason why the Pats lost in Denver ... Belichick had fired his O-line coach the day after the game against Denver in the Playoffs.

Yep, spot on. We even had two RTs on the field to guard Von, and he still got to Brady in less than 2 seconds on one sack play. Brutal day for the OL.

 

Now though, our two teams are in top 5, I'd say

[SkippyX]

5 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

Brady and Ben almost never had "bad" OL

Dumb response. Daks OL has been terrible (at pass blocking) to anyone with eyes.

This is the equivalent of calling someone else a genious. Well played sir.

Feel free to watch Philly vs Pittsburgh in 2008 and the Denver - New England head bob AFCCG from 2015.

[Matts4313]

Just now, SkippyX said:

This is the equivalent of calling someone else a genious. Well played sir.

Feel free to watch Philly vs Pittsburgh in 2008 and the Denver - New England head bob AFCCG from 2015.

feel free to distinguish between almost and never. 

Free free to use anecdotal evidence as your base line retort to anything to disagree with.

 

[fortdetroit]

20 hours ago, SkippyX said:

This is just a weird statistic. I'd call this a 2nd level statistical breakdown that explains very little without including the QB's elusiveness as the 3rd level.

There are lots of plays where the line plays terribly and should give up a sack but a superior QB evades the sack and makes a play.

• Wilson probably has 25 of these a year. Watson does similar things.

Take a look at the 4th down play in SB LII where maitre d Big V tells a couple of Patriots: "This way to the QB my good men." but Foles evades them, finds a throwing lane, and makes the play. That grades out as a Z- for the LT on the play but the result is a drive extender and a bunch of rings. No sack is recorded on that play so it would not show up as a negative statistic for the O-line.

 

There are also a bunch of plays where the lineman gets beat a bit too soon but puts up a fight and the QB should do a bit more to evade the sack.

In 2014 Foles got sacked 9 times in about 328 drop backs and Sanchez got sacked 23 times in about 350 drop backs.

• If anything the line was worse for Foles (injuries early in the season) bt sanchez is really bad at avoiding pressure and Foles is very good at it.

Guys like Brady and Roethlisberger will dance around behind bad lines to give themselves another second to make the big play.

• Pretending that poor Dak has worse players is just foolish. Its possible he's just a bad QB.

And there are even more times when a running QB gets pressured/is about to get pressured but instead of passing the ball away quickly tries to use his athleticism to run around instead and ends up getting sacked, when the standard pocket qb would have simply gotten the ball out and not taken a sack.

Edited August 18, 2019 by fortdetroit

[fortdetroit]

Saw this on twitter the other day. Pretty much explains things IMO and agrees with what my belief has been for years.

https://twitter.com/ScottBarrettDFB/status/1162889561468526592?s=20

https://twitter.com/ScottBarrettDFB/status/1162889561468526592?s=20

Edited August 18, 2019 by fortdetroit

[SkippyX]

9 minutes ago, fortdetroit said:

And there are even more times when a running QB gets pressured/is about to get pressured but instead of passing the ball away quickly tries to use his athleticism to run around instead and ends up getting sacked, when the standard pocket qb would have simply gotten the ball out and not taken a sack.

There absolutely are (and they are very easy to count in the stats above) but there are also times where really slow nonathletic QBs do the same thing.

 

Its kind of like you can pretend you know which interceptions are on the QB or on the receiver without knowing what routes they were supposed to run.

[Bolts223]

7 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

Brady and Ben almost never had "bad" OL

Dumb response. Daks OL has been terrible (at pass blocking) to anyone with eyes.

The Patriots o-line in 2015 was pretty awful. Got massacred by injuries. Brady was still able to make it a top offense and had it one play away from going to the SB.