Matts4313 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, Jroc04 said: 11 minutes ago, Jroc04 said: What’s all the issues with the money, injuries aside? Of course it’s a lot of money. It’s the most important position in sports. 6 years 154M. 25.6 per. Good for about 8th most for QBs. Looks like a good deal to me. I hear the injury concern but assuming he’s healthy this is a home run for the Eagles FO. Posted in another thread but what’s the problem? Anyways, back to Wentz and dropping Dak. The issue is the new money is potentially highest paid QB in the NFL. But it kicks in around the time of the new CBA. So it shouldnt be an issue at all. If you have a franchise player, you pay him. The only real knock is the amount of GTD money give you no flexibility if he gets hurt another time or two. Getting the deal done first was smart and I hate your franchise for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jroc04 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Matts4313 said: Daks last 11 games (after new OL coach and Cooper) - which is the same amount of games that Wentz played (both 11): 101 QB rating 70% completions Both had 22 TDs Both had the same amount ballpark of yard Dak had less INT/Fumbles But one is a god and the other is dogish - right? I can easily just say, Wentz had terrible protection when he came back, still getting right from a ACL tear, with a broke back. Dak’s best is Carson banged the hell up. You can justify bad Dak a million different ways but how come you never acknowledge Carson had some things hindering him all the while? Just isnt fair. You caveat so much ish for Dak but just sweep Carson’s stuff under the rug. It’s not being very objective. I don’t like to bring up excuses for a guy. He is or isn’t. But when all you get from an argument standpoint with you is Dak doesn’t have this or that or this, it gets tiresome. If you’re going to play the excuse game, play it fair. There have been plenty of great QBs that make a chicken sandwich out of chicken ish. Its what makes them great. And guys that can’t, are only just guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jroc04 said: I can easily just say, Wentz had terrible protection when he came back, still getting right from a ACL tear, with a broke back. Dak’s best is Carson banged the hell up. You can justify bad Dak a million different ways but how come you never acknowledge Carson had some things hindering him all the while? Just isnt fair. You caveat so much ish for Dak but just sweep Carson’s stuff under the rug. It’s not being very objective. I don’t like to bring up excuses for a guy. He is or isn’t. But when all you get from an argument standpoint with you is Dak doesn’t have this or that or this, it gets tiresome. If you’re going to play the excuse game, play it fair. There have been plenty of great QBs that make a chicken sandwich out of chicken ish. Its what makes them great. And guys that can’t, are only just guys. Carson was hurt. Him coming back from injury that quick with limited offseason absolutely hurt him. He was thrown in after other players had adjusted back to playing NFL games. He clearly gutted it out longer than he should have. Better? Now, can we also admit he had a better OL and better passing weapons? Better offensive coaching? And that his situation as a whole was *much* more favorable than Daks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 Last thing on the Dak/Wentz, because I dont want to flood your Wentz contract thread: When Dak had the better weapons, he was a 100+ QB rating guy and Wentz was <80. When Dak had the worse weapons, he was mid 80s QB rating guy and Wentz was >100. When Dak had worse weapons, but Wentz was coming back from injury, they were both ~100 QB rating guys. Those are their careers in a nutshell. I think going forward (barring injuries, surrounding talent) both QBs will be consistently in that ~100-108 QB rating range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jroc04 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: Carson was hurt. Him coming back from injury that quick with limited offseason absolutely hurt him. He was thrown in after other players had adjusted back to playing NFL games. He clearly gutted it out longer than he should have. Better? Now, can we also admit he had a better OL and better passing weapons? Better offensive coaching? And that his situation as a whole was *much* more favorable than Daks? Yea, man. You acknowledging that is helpful. So, now attach it to your narrative. Dak’s optimal play, (over the last 11 games or whatever you say) is as good as Carson extremely banged up on a team struggling to run the ball with questionable pass protection . Is that somewhere in the realm of true? Well, I’d have to deep dive it Matts style into some OL stats last year. He was always under pressure initially. It’s how he got his back broke. 13 sacks and 30 hurries or something (could be wrong about those hurries, that seems high) in 3 games. That’s running for your damn life. With a recovering ACL. I’d say that’s worse or on par with whatever Dak was dealing with on his bad days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jroc04 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: Last thing on the Dak/Wentz, because I dont want to flood your Wentz contract thread: When Dak had the better weapons, he was a 100+ QB rating guy and Wentz was <80. When Dak had the worse weapons, he was mid 80s QB rating guy and Wentz was >100. When Dak had worse weapons, but Wentz was coming back from injury, they were both ~100 QB rating guys. Those are their careers in a nutshell. I think going forward (barring injuries, surrounding talent) both QBs will be consistently in that ~100-108 QB rating range. I honestly don’t think you can umbrella their years like that. Rookie scales are different for everyone. Carson’s making a double jump in competition from AA. And North Dakota notwithstanding, QBs aren’t what they are in their rookie years, for good or bad. Dak didn’t have a full compliment his second year. Wentz was hurt or recovering his third. There’s just too much to process to actually judge them on what they are. Year three and beyond is obviously more telling. Once the tape is out on you and defenses begin to see tendencies or shortcomings is more indicative of what you are. The stat is too broad to just take as gospel. There’s much more wiggle room in there than what’s intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jroc04 said: Yea, man. You acknowledging that is helpful. So, now attach it to your narrative. Dak’s optimal play, (over the last 11 games or whatever you say) is as good as Carson extremely banged up on a team struggling to run the ball with questionable pass protection . Is that somewhere in the realm of true? Well, I’d have to deep dive it Matts style into some OL stats last year. He was always under pressure initially. It’s how he got his back broke. 13 sacks and 30 hurries or something (could be wrong about those hurries, that seems high) in 3 games. That’s running for your damn life. With a recovering ACL. I’d say that’s worse or on par with whatever Dak was dealing with on his bad days. 1. No, that was not optimal Dak. That was Dak with 1 legit passing option and a slightly improved but still crappy OL. Dak also, self admittedly, had the yips because he was getting clobbered so much. I think that was Dak with a mediocre - to bad surrounding cast, and he produced well while helping get us to the playoffs. It was Dak, and Wentz, with a litany of reasons their play was sub optimal. And they both produced about the same. 2. I posted all the OL stuff in NFL Gen. https://forums.footballsfuture.com/topic/19548-qb-self-inflicted-sacks-and-ol-rankings/ The only thing I dont have is total QB pressures, which I wish I did. For example, La'el collins was attributed with 46 pressures (8 sacks) last year, which was the second worst RT in the entire NFL. But I dont have all the stats for all of the OL; much less for the Eagles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: 13 sacks and 30 hurries or something (could be wrong about those hurries, that seems high) in 3 games Dak OL 6.58% sacks/per play Wentz 6.14% Foles 3.62% Cowboys ranked 28th, 6.58% Eagles ranked 17th, 4.6% 5.3% Your OL was about 50% 25% better than ours in terms of QB sacks. Edited June 7, 2019 by Matts4313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jroc04 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 Im sure we can do this all day. But I think it’s a big stretch to say, for whatever reason, Dak had more to overcome than Carson and his injuries. I don’t think last year was even at all in those terms. Carson had much more going against him. I’ll put it this way, not being able to quantify it at all mind you, a healthy Carson on the Cowboys out performs what Dak achieved. I just believe that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 Cowboys player with zero career sacks against the Eagles takes shot at Carson Wentz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 18 minutes ago, Jroc04 said: Im sure we can do this all day. But I think it’s a big stretch to say, for whatever reason, Dak had more to overcome than Carson and his injuries. I don’t think last year was even at all in those terms. Carson had much more going against him. I’ll put it this way, not being able to quantify it at all mind you, a healthy Carson on the Cowboys out performs what Dak achieved. I just believe that. Can we agree with this: Dak had the better: Running back Wentz had the better: WR group, TE group, OL and offensive coaching Is that fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jroc04 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: Can we agree with this: Dak had the better: Running back Wentz had the better: WR group, TE group, OL and offensive coaching Is that fair? Arguable but fair I suppose. I don’t think our OL was very good last year. Especially the run blocking. Zeke is 10 times any running back we had last year. Cowboys running game, which is a big thing, was head and shoulders better. I don’t know how to quantify coaching. Who knows what exactly is being called and why. I would lean the Eagles just because of Super Bowl. But, imo, Doug’s had some head scratchers game to game. Cowboys had a pretty good defense last year as well. It certainly plays into the offensive production too. Given the major injuries to Carson, it may be closer than you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jroc04 said: Arguable but fair I suppose. I don’t think our OL was very good last year. Especially the run blocking. Zeke is 10 times any running back we had last year. Cowboys running game, which is a big thing, was head and shoulders better. I don’t know how to quantify coaching. Who knows what exactly is being called and why. I would lean the Eagles just because of Super Bowl. But, imo, Doug’s had some head scratchers game to game. Cowboys had a pretty good defense last year as well. It certainly plays into the offensive production too. Given the major injuries to Carson, it may be closer than you think. With out all the extras though: Would you trade the 2018 Cowboys OL for the 2018 Eagles? Would you trade the 2018 Cowboys WR/TEs for the Eagles? Would you trade Linehan for Pederson (I think thats your playcaller) - just the OC part, not the HC part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jroc04 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: With out all the extras though: Would you trade the 2018 Cowboys OL for the 2018 Eagles? Would you trade the 2018 Cowboys WR/TEs for the Eagles? Would you trade Linehan for Pederson (I think thats your playcaller) - just the OC part, not the HC part. Possibly No No And I’m splitting hairs but “trade” is a different term than “rather have”. I don’t think I’d trade for any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, Jroc04 said: Possibly No No And I’m splitting hairs but “trade” is a different term than “rather have”. I don’t think I’d trade for any of them. You are weirding me out about the OL. Smith is slightly better than Peters - both have injury concerns Whomever your LG is was light years better than ours (they gave up 15.5 sacks) Kelce>>>>> Joe Looney Zack Martin >>>>> Your RG Lane Johnson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lael Collins. You guys win 3 positions, we win 1, and we tie-ish on one. Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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