N4L Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 50 minutes ago, wwhickok said: To both the people that basically called me stupid, I posted an opinion on the subject of the thread 44 minutes ago, wwhickok said: i have less of an issue with your response than the other guys. lol I never called you stupid, however I am debating it at this point. I actually was in your corner, try again 58 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: You arent helping your cause here buddy. You can run a lot as part of a plan to have a conservative, but efficient passing game. That was literally the Cowboys strategy. But at the end of the day, the most important factor is efficient passing. Not bulk passing. Not bulk/efficient running. Neither of those things are strongly correlated with winning Yes, it is a lot harder to win games if you don't have a passing game vs if you don't have a running game. No one is disputing that. Obviously in today's NFL you need to have a good QB to win games consistently. This is known. That doesn't make the run game 'irrelevant' in any way shape or form. Everything is tied together. It is a lot harder to have an efficient passing game if you don't have the ability to run the ball. Look at the Rams, they throw the ball a lot, and the majority of their passing game is predicated on play action. They use play action so much that it actually helps their run game, because LBs have to wait an extra heartbeat when they are reading run because the threat of play action is so great. Its all tied together. Again, you cant quantify everything in football on a stat sheet. This isn't baseball. You wont find a singular stat to 'disprove that the run game is largely irrelevant' because there is no singular stat in football that quantifies everything going on an any one particular play, let alone throughout the course of a game, throughout the course of a season. I cant believe that we are having this discussion, and that you are acting like you are the smartest guy in the room. I respect the fact you are willing to go against conventional wisdom, but lets be honest with ourselves here, the running game is a part of the puzzle. Probably not the biggest part of puzzle, but it DOES have an affect on the outcome of football games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, N4L said: It is a lot harder to have an efficient passing game if you don't have the ability to run the ball. Please read the OP. There are multiple articles that disprove this. There are 25 years studies that show there is no/very low correlation between any rushing stat and ANY/A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whicker Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) I’m pretty surprised at the negative responses to this thread. The OP makes a lot of sense with facts that haven’t been disputed outside of poor anecdotal examples. This hits home to me as poker player because to me, the way the run game is presented in this thread is similar to bluffing in poker. Bluffing is an absolutely essential dimension of winning poker, but the actual dollar amounts gained from it are largely irrelevant to your overall win. The biggest wins in poker come from making hands and getting those hands paid off. Any individual session is going to be defined a win or a loss based on the frequency of making hands and how well they fare (passing efficiency). This can be accomplished by making hands in good spots (strong passing game) and/or by setting opponents up via bluffing (running game). You can certainly bluff more frequently (have a stronger running game), but in actuality it’s more of the threat of being able to successfully bluff in a spot that will contribute to the frequency of being paid. There is no ideal balance in poker as a stronger bluffing game will lead to a better showdown game for the most part, but I’ve never seen a poker player (and I’m a professional) who wins solely because of his bluffs. His bluffs only mean something greater to the overall game. Yes, there have been some sessions that would have been losers that were winners because of my bluffs, but they are few and far between and not big wins. The big wins come from doubling with a set, busting somone with AA, etc. Same as there is no ideal balance in a football team since it’s all interconnected, but I do fully believe that, like bluffing, the run game (other than running out the clock which is of course a specific situation) is useful only to the extent in which it helps your passing efficiency. Edited June 19, 2019 by Whicker 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Whicker said: I’m pretty surprised at the negative responses to this thread. Its because I used a pretty trollish thread title. Its funny to me to see who all actually reads the OP and who just reads the title and loses their mind. If I had more appropriately said "ANY/A is the only highly correlated stat with winning" the general feel of the thread would be different. Edited June 19, 2019 by Matts4313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) I didn't read more than the op of the thread but aren't RBs' YPCatch (or even better YPTarget) generally pretty similar to a RBs' YPCarry? So even when they are catching the ball it is not as valuable. Edited June 19, 2019 by 11sanchez11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daimonas Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Idk if it's true or not. But this is definitely one the nerdier threads I've seen in awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 9 minutes ago, Daimonas said: Idk if it's true or not. But this is definitely one the nerdier threads I've seen in awhile. Seems more like someone practicing to make the debate team to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Matts4313 said: Its funny to me to see who all actually reads the OP and who just reads the title and loses their mind. To be fair, it's a pretty ridiculous title. You gotta have a good title, man. Think of submitting a resume to a company with a cover letter that says "I AM ALL THAT IS MAN!" When the company rejects you, are you gonna say, "Did you even read my resume?" No, they didn't. Why would they when the cover letter is stupid? If you changed it to something like, "The pass game is significantly more important than the run game," you'd get a lot more serious responses. I think you're smart enough to acknowledge the running game has its value. Edited June 19, 2019 by Art_Vandalay 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 35 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: To be fair, it's a pretty ridiculous title. That was the entire point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: That was the entire point.... And yet you're annoyed that people aren't taking it seriously? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Art_Vandalay said: And yet you're annoyed that people aren't taking it seriously? Im annoyed? I was when it got no traction, im good now. Edited June 19, 2019 by Matts4313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: Im annoyed? I was when it got no traction, im good now. Ah, so the trollee has become the troller... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfNewYork Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Regardless of the “facts” or stats, the threat of the run game is still important. Forcing defenses to hesitate or think for even a split second can open up passing lanes and help the QB and OL giving them an additional second or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannenballs Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 I don't understand how analytics puts so much value on play action passing but zero on the run game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 22, 2019 Author Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 hour ago, tannenballs said: I don't understand how analytics puts so much value on play action passing but zero on the run game Because statistically you can run play action and never hand it off, and it is effective. You just need the threat of the run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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