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soulman

Bears believe Clinton-Dix is an upgrade over Amos

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Posted (edited)

 

Bears believe Clinton-Dix is an upgrade over Amos

https://bearswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/09/bears-believe-clinton-dix-is-an-upgrade-over-amos/

 

The Bears100 celebration has had plenty of highlights over the past couple of days, from the unveiling of the new throwback uniforms to Mitchell Trubisky donning the classic Jim McMahon shades and headband.

But in between the alumni panels and activities, more information came out about the Bears decision to not re-sign S Adrian Amos and instead take a one-year flyer on former Packers and Redskins S Ha Ha Clinton-Dix.

During a panel at the event, Bears Director of Player Personnel Josh Lucas revealed the team consistently graded Clinton-Dix higher than Amos over the last four seasons, according to NBC Sports Chicago’s JJ Stankevitz.

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Here’s something director of player personnel Josh Lucas said at a #Bears100 panel today Bears fans will like to hear: The Bears have consistently graded Ha Ha Clinton-Dix as a better player than Adrian Amos for four years.

 
Stankevitz then provided more context around the comments from Lucas, saying the grade shouldn’t come as a shock. 

A bit more context here: This isn't surprising! Clinton-Dix was a former first-round pick, Amos was a fifth round pick. And Ryan Pace's thought on Amos signing $$$ in Green Bay stands: "The first thing for Amos is it's almost one of those deals where you're proud."

Instead of viewing Clinton-Dix as a consolation signing of some sort, the Bears believe they landed a safety better than Amos, while only committing $500,000 guaranteed compared to Amos’ $12 million he received from the Packers.

And while the initial grade makes sense considering Clinton-Dix was a former first-round pick and Amos was drafted in the fifth round, Chicago clearly believes Clinton-Dix’s arrow is pointing higher than Amos’ in 2019, money notwithstanding.

Clinton-Dix, traded from the Packers to the Redskins midseason, finished last season with 93 tackles, three interceptions, and one sack in 16 games, bouncing back after two somewhat sub-par seasons with Green Bay. Amos, meanwhile, had 59 tackles, two interceptions, and one sack in 16 games with Chicago.

Fans of both teams will get see how each safety performs against their former team, as the Bears and Packers are set to open the 2019 NFL season in Chicago on September 5.

Edited by soulman

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3...2...1... for a smegmahead to dispute this.

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6 minutes ago, yomyyo said:

3...2...1... for a smegmahead to dispute this.

LOLOL xD

Tough to debate how our Director of Player Personnel ranked them but he's welcome to try.  That's a conversation I'd love to join.   :D

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Posted (edited)

From a value perspective, having Clinton-Dix at his price-tag is a much better deal.

With regards to talent, I think picking him up has the potential to make the game completely unfair if he's plays up to his potential. Here's my rank of last year's defensive starters ranked with regards to positional worth and player talent.

1) OLB1-Mack 2) FS-Eddie Jack 3) DE1-Hicks 4) CB1-Fuller 5) MLB1-Smith 6) MLB2-Trevathan 7) OLB2-Floyd 8) NT-Goldman 9) SS-Adrian Amos 10) CB2-Amukamara 11) DE2-Bullard

This Defense was stacked. Adrian Amos was the type of player that wouldn't have a terrible game but in his best games wouldn't be a difference maker. With a collection of this talent, we don't need Clinton-Dix to be one of the best players. At his worst he'd be around the Amukamara range, but at his best he could be a top 4-6 player on this defense. We have a player with high upside and a decent backup in Bush incase he is a complete disaster. Last year we had the best defense in the league. This year we have the potential to have a historically great defense. I'm certainly satisfied with how things turned out.

Edited by BACK2MACKSACK

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CDix is faster, has better range and hands.  He makes plays on ball way better.  Amos is a better tackler.  

CDix played without a pass rush and without good secondary last season in both Washington and GB. 

He mostly played way deep in center of field and his job was to prevent big plays.  That is really, really hard without help from pass rush and other secondary players.

At any level of football you cannot deal with talented offensive players coming at you again and again with lots of space between you and them with ball in their hand.  That is situation he was in again and again and Packers fans are ripping him for not being better at it.  He was mostly good with a handful of bad moments.

Jackson was best safety in football last year and he had to do that in Miami game once front seven gassed and he didnt do well at it either.  It's hard. 

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9 hours ago, BACK2MACKSACK said:

From a value perspective, having Clinton-Dix at his price-tag is a much better deal.

With regards to talent, I think picking him up has the potential to make the game completely unfair if he's plays up to his potential. Here's my rank of last year's defensive starters ranked with regards to positional worth and player talent.

1) OLB1-Mack 2) FS-Eddie Jack 3) DE1-Hicks 4) CB1-Fuller 5) MLB1-Smith 6) MLB2-Trevathan 7) OLB2-Floyd 8) NT-Goldman 9) SS-Adrian Amos 10) CB2-Amukamara 11) DE2-Bullard

This Defense was stacked. Adrian Amos was the type of player that wouldn't have a terrible game but in his best games wouldn't be a difference maker. With a collection of this talent, we don't need Clinton-Dix to be one of the best players. At his worst he'd be around the Amukamara range, but at his best he could be a top 4-6 player on this defense. We have a player with high upside and a decent backup in Bush incase he is a complete disaster. Last year we had the best defense in the league. This year we have the potential to have a historically great defense. I'm certainly satisfied with how things turned out.

That's the way I think of it. GB paid Amos who was a bottom 3, arguably bottom 2, player on the Bears starting D $9M/year. HHCD is surely more talented but Amos might be the more solid player. Regardless HHCD is going to also be a bottom 2-3 player on the defense and I'm not concerned about it at all.

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20 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

That's the way I think of it. GB paid Amos who was a bottom 3, arguably bottom 2, player on the Bears starting D $9M/year. HHCD is surely more talented but Amos might be the more solid player. Regardless HHCD is going to also be a bottom 2-3 player on the defense and I'm not concerned about it at all.

I'm not so sure HHCD is a bottom 2-3 player on Bears D.  At his best he certainly isn't.  

He might be steal of 2019.  He defintely isnt bad football player some are saying he is based on what I have seen.  

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10 hours ago, BACK2MACKSACK said:

From a value perspective, having Clinton-Dix at his price-tag is a much better deal.

With regards to talent, I think picking him up has the potential to make the game completely unfair if he's plays up to his potential. Here's my rank of last year's defensive starters ranked with regards to positional worth and player talent.

1) OLB1-Mack 2) FS-Eddie Jack 3) DE1-Hicks 4) CB1-Fuller 5) MLB1-Smith 6) MLB2-Trevathan 7) OLB2-Floyd 8) NT-Goldman 9) SS-Adrian Amos 10) CB2-Amukamara 11) DE2-Bullard

This Defense was stacked. Adrian Amos was the type of player that wouldn't have a terrible game but in his best games wouldn't be a difference maker. With a collection of this talent, we don't need Clinton-Dix to be one of the best players. At his worst he'd be around the Amukamara range, but at his best he could be a top 4-6 player on this defense. We have a player with high upside and a decent backup in Bush incase he is a complete disaster. Last year we had the best defense in the league. This year we have the potential to have a historically great defense. I'm certainly satisfied with how things turned out.

Good post. Honestly I'd put Amukamara before Amos as well.

 

Amos to me is the better player overall, but that is due to his consistency. My views/gradings and the one Lucas and Co used likely are far different (as theirs far more detailed and informed as well honestly) but if they have different values for big plays then it is easy to see why Amos never raked as high. Amos is better in the run game, I doubt there are any real arguments on this board with that, and to me he was more consistent on the pass game. Now he was not a high level pass defender by any means, but he was consistently over the top or coming down hard to the receiver. But HHCD unquestionably makes more splash plays, so if those are graded as more favorable than consistently making minimal impact plays and broken plays (which he also has more of than Amos due to much more responsibilities handled) then he should grade out superior every year to Amos. Amos was a consistent player, but he wasn't a game breaker in any way, hell Hicks nicknamed him "Spatula Hands" just due to how many INTs he let slip. A 330+ pound DL nicknamed him that. lol

 

I think GB overpaid, but they got the consistent presence they wanted. I like them at about the same level, maybe a bit more to Amos' direction. But when looking at their contracts then HHCD is the FAR better value IMO. The Bears have far better players to concern themselves with re-signing, neither is worth losing a top shelf talent over.

 

48 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I'm not so sure HHCD is a bottom 2-3 player on Bears D.  At his best he certainly isn't.  

He might be steal of 2019.  He defintely isnt bad football player some are saying he is based on what I have seen.  

As far as our starters to me he likely is about a bottom 3 starter, but saying that for a Bears defense like we are fielding isn't near the knock as saying it about 90% of the other teams in the NFL. there are a number of defenses he would be a top 4-5 player on and that would likely be a relatively safe statement. It is more a compliment to the strength of the starting cast in Chicago than a knock against HHCD or Amos to me.

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2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I'm not so sure HHCD is a bottom 2-3 player on Bears D.  At his best he certainly isn't.  

He might be steal of 2019.  He defintely isnt bad football player some are saying he is based on what I have seen.  

Problem is, we really haven't seen him at his best for a few years. Certainly there were some variables involved including a mediocre pass rush in front of him. For the record, the "bottom 2-3 on the Bears D" wasn't a dig at him. It's just that Roquan, Trevathan, EJ, Fuller, Mack, Goldman, Hicks, and Floyd are all better players and I may even include Nichols in that and Amukamara on some days too.

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How much of HHCD slippage in GB can be blamed on the overall talent and scheme is debatable but even he has made it clear that he was not a happy camper his last couple of seasons in "The Tundra" and that he was not alone in that regard.  He knew it was time to move on.

He played far better once he arrived in DC and he did it playing more as a SS than as a FS.  Washington doesn't have the kind of defense we have and yet he still elevated his level of play and consistency in comparison to his earlier games in Green Bay.  That's a plus.

Now he's where he wants to be and I think we'll see a guy whose far more like the player he was his first three years in the league.  But IMHO comparing him to Amos doesn't do justice to either of them.  Their style of play and skill sets don't really match up well.

What I see now are two ball hawks parked in the middle of our secondary who can feast on mistakes.  Fuller and Amukamara at CB with HHCD and Jackson patrolling the seams and middle zones is a scary secondary even without our pass rush.  With it it's a nightmare.

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For even money I would take Amos because he is reliable.

HHCD has more upside, but he also has more downside as he has more negative plays and is less reliable.

 

For the money give me HHCD and I will hope being asked to do less with elite team mates reduces his negative plays.

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Football is ultimate team game. 

PFF is going on and in about evaluating QBs and making this smarter than you point that QBs don’t get better year to year using their data.

They point out Dak Prescott, Wentz and Goff.  First year Dak was really good, second year Wentz really good and third year Goff really good.  Non linear right? Genius analysis.  

But I can guarantee Dak is a better QB now than 2 years ago.  Situations are different because of many variables that effect play.  Teammates, health, teammates health, schedule, coaching, suspensions, etc. 

No QBs or anyone don’t get continually better, but their knowledge and experience in 4th year of same system is superior to first year not worse. That has value.  

Yes, players do regress, but that can be for a lot of reasons as well.  Too many to mention.

Player progression is not random like PFF insinuates it’s just there are so many variables that outcomes are often unpredictable and vary so widely it looks random.   

Point is total situations matter a lot in football. More than any other sport.  Also what you are asked to do matters a lot.

HHCD was asked to do something really hard without good tools to assist him in doing it.   I think people may be pleasantly surprised when he is asked to do something not nearly as difficult with better tools. 

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Being a bottom 3 player on this defense is definitely not a knock.  It featured 3 all pros in Mack, Jackson, and Fuller, who are all arguably the best at their position in the league (after the consecutive years for Fuller, I'd say it's fair to have him in that conversation).  Then you have pro bowler Akiem Hicks, who is maybe #2 at his position.  Dont forget about Eddie Goldman who may be the best at his position.  Add in 2 outstanding ILBs who can run and cover.  A swiss army knife at OLB and that doesnt leave much room for anybody else.  The defense had 4 guys voted to the PB and it probably should have been 6 or 7.  Amos was JAG.  He was JAG who would be where he was expected to be, but JAG nonetheless.

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Dix is significant upgrade with regard to speed and athleticism  ... and 93 tackles for a safety is very good  !

He's not as gritty as Amos but Dix offers plenty of things that Amos simply cannot ... love the signing, love his range !! 

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16 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Being a bottom 3 player on this defense is definitely not a knock.  It featured 3 all pros in Mack, Jackson, and Fuller, who are all arguably the best at their position in the league (after the consecutive years for Fuller, I'd say it's fair to have him in that conversation).  Then you have pro bowler Akiem Hicks, who is maybe #2 at his position.  Dont forget about Eddie Goldman who may be the best at his position.  Add in 2 outstanding ILBs who can run and cover.  A swiss army knife at OLB and that doesnt leave much room for anybody else.  The defense had 4 guys voted to the PB and it probably should have been 6 or 7.  Amos was JAG.  He was JAG who would be where he was expected to be, but JAG nonetheless.

It would be tough to rank the defensive players and bottom 3 is not a knock.  11 is not a knock.  Why I am so excited about this season.

DE 96 Hicks, Akiem U/NE 97 Williams, Nicholas SF18 49 Harris, Chuck CF19 90 Dalton, Jalen CF19    
NT 91 Goldman, Eddie 15/2 76 Anderson, Abdullah CF18 93 Banfield, Daryle CF19        
DE 98 Nichols, Bilal 18/5 90 Bullard, Jonathan 16/3 95 Robertson-Harris, Roy CF16 71 Harris, Jonathan CF19    
LOLB 52 Mack, Khalil T/Oak 99 Lynch, Aaron U/SF 55 Woods, Josh CF18        
LILB 58 Smith, Roquan 18/1 44 Kwiatkoski, Nick 16/4 46 Vaughters, James SF19        
RILB 59 Trevathan, Danny U/Den 45 Iyiegbuniwe, Joel 18/4 53 Thurman, Jameer SF19 57 Pierre-Louis, Kevin U/NYJ    
ROLB 94 Floyd, Leonard 16/1 47 Irving, Isaiah CF17 49 Fitts, Kylie 18/6 92 Betts, Mathieu CF19    
LCB 23 Fuller, Kyle 14/1 27 MCMANIS, SHERRICK 10/5 25 Mincy, Jonathon SF18 35 Denmark, Stephen 19/7 22 Duck, Clifton CF19
S 21 Clinton-Dix, Ha Ha U/Was 36 Houston-Carson, DeAndre 16/6 43 Jibowu, Doyin CF19        
S 39 Jackson, Eddie 17/4 26 Bush, Deon 16/4            
RCB 20 AMUKAMARA, PRINCE U/Jax

Note this is MY PROJECTED list for 2019 performance and not a list based on career achievements or past performance or past seasons or who has been best to date.  It's future for 2019.  

1. Mack

2. Smith

3. Jackson

4. Hicks

5. Goldman

6. Fuller

7. Trevathan

8. HHCD

9. Nichols

10. Floyd

11. Prince Amukamara

12. Buster Skrine - I think Buster will likely start season as our NCB, but is our least talented CB so I think he gets beat out and replaced at some point.  Likely by Duke Shelley.

This is also my predicted best defense in NFL in 2019.  Nobody else is as good on paper.  

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