Cuts to 53

[IronMike84]

59 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

You can also over value special teams. Which I happen to think the Bears do.

Given how laugable that unit was as recently as three years ago and how slow they've been to improve, maybe you should change your tune.

Unless, of course, you think crap like this is acceptable: 

 

[WindyCity]

1 hour ago, IronMike84 said:

Given how laugable that unit was as recently as three years ago and how slow they've been to improve, maybe you should change your tune.

Unless, of course, you think crap like this is acceptable: 

 

It really is not a 1/3 of the game. If you add up the plays it is more like 1/7.

Sacrificing offense for special teams is idiotic.

The Bears offense was 28th in points last season. That is going to have a much larger impact on your record than any special team.

 

 

[AZBearsFan]

5 hours ago, Epyon said:

Because he's in the concussion protocol,, and they are trying to stash him on IR as a redshirt season.

The Fedni comparison is extremely poor, and lazy.....Fendi didn't even play football....Hodges was extremely successful as a TE in college, produced at an extremely high level in the receiving game, and put out an amazing combine to boot. He's quantifiably better in every measurable way than Shaheen, a guy we already drafted AND rostered. Oh... and he had better production in preseason as well....

And long term potential takes precedence over both of those things when you are talking about a rebuilding roster that isn't going to make the playoffs this year..... Not to mention the fact that you could literally just keep him as one of the 5 inactives each week.... and not have to worry about him ruining special teams (and that's with a rather erroneous assumption that a guy with his size/measurables couldn't find some utility on Special Teams as well)

That would also be a wonderful bonus to the situation.

If they wanted to IR him for the season they could have just IRed him, specifically BECAUSE he's in the concussion protocol. They didn't. A guy they JUST drafted. Realistically they could have rostered him for a few more days and IRed him as a potential IR-Return player for later in the season and they didn't do that either. In fact, they replaced him on the roster with QB-turned-TE Blake Bell, another project. Reading what they're doing sure makes it seem like MIN gave up on long term hopes for him really quickly which for a team that has an average starter and no depth of consequence at the position seems pretty telling. 

The Onubon comparison is not a lazy one - I made it because you talked up Hodges on the basis of his freak athletic ability and measurables. Both Hodges and Onubon fit that qualifier YOU used. Don't move the goal posts now. 

You can complain about Shaheen testing as an inferior athlete to Hodges all you want but Pace is committed to Shaheen as his 2nd round pick, and the fact that Hodges went 156 picks after Shaheen in the draft AND that he was cut instead of being "redshirted" on IR suggests both that everyone whose opinion in the league matters thinks he's a far lesser football player and prospect than you'd like for him to be and that being a freak athlete is only an asset in the NFL if you can also play NFL football which Minnesota clearly did not think he could. His size and measurables may well have a role on ST provided he can actually tackle or block,  but let's not pretend he's filling the same role there that Bellamy does. Bellamy is a gunner, and a pretty good one. You're not putting Hodges there.

[Epyon]

2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

If they wanted to IR him for the season they could have just IRed him, specifically BECAUSE he's in the concussion protocol. They didn't. A guy they JUST drafted. Realistically they could have rostered him for a few more days and IRed him as a potential IR-Return player for later in the season and they didn't do that either. In fact, they replaced him on the roster with QB-turned-TE Blake Bell, another project. Reading what they're doing sure makes it seem like MIN gave up on long term hopes for him really quickly which for a team that has an average starter and no depth of consequence at the position seems pretty telling. 

The Onubon comparison is not a lazy one - I made it because you talked up Hodges on the basis of his freak athletic ability and measurables. Both Hodges and Onubon fit that qualifier YOU used. Don't move the goal posts now. 

You can complain about Shaheen testing as an inferior athlete to Hodges all you want but Pace is committed to Shaheen as his 2nd round pick, and the fact that Hodges went 156 picks after Shaheen in the draft AND that he was cut instead of being "redshirted" on IR suggests both that everyone whose opinion in the league matters thinks he's a far lesser football player and prospect than you'd like for him to be and that being a freak athlete is only an asset in the NFL if you can also play NFL football which Minnesota clearly did not think he could. His size and measurables may well have a role on ST provided he can actually tackle or block,  but let's not pretend he's filling the same role there that Bellamy does. Bellamy is a gunner, and a pretty good one. You're not putting Hodges there.

It's an incredibly lazy comparison.... especially since I specifically quoted PFF regarding Hodges' collegiate production in the same post you quoted, when bringing up Fendi in your response.... It's not me moving goalposts, it's you not reading posts.

As far as Bellamy goes, fine then, Keep Bellamy if you so desperately need him to be the savior of Special Teams....on what is assuredly another rebuilding/non playoff year where we should be trying to develop talent for the future.... I'm sure his extra 5 ST tackles this season will really pay off for us in 2-3 years time when we're hopefully actually in a real position to make a playoff push. But whatever, keep him then,  there's still more than enough other fat on the roster that could easily have been pruned. Deon Bush for example, isn't very good on special teams, nor is he remotely good at his skill position. Long term upside ain't looking so hot either... Mark Sanchez is another one, I get it, he's Mitch's mentor.... but that's also your coach's job, not one of your players' jobs... Hire Sanchez as a position coach if you really want him doing that, but stop wasting a roster slot on him. Then there's the fullback, which unless we dramatically change course from both last season and preseason, is going to see even less field time then Bellamy.... and could easily be replaced by a TE or a depth DL like Unrein (who has lead blocked previously in his career). 3 roster slots right there that could be pruned.

[blkwdw13]

On 9/4/2017 at 5:58 PM, IronMike84 said:

Given how laugable that unit was as recently as three years ago and how slow they've been to improve, maybe you should change your tune.

Unless, of course, you think crap like this is acceptable: 

 

Took out the video but I'm pretty sure this was by the same coaching staff that the previous year Aaron Rodgers fumbled and the whole defense stood around and then watched the Packers run it in for a touchdown.  Horrible coaching on both plays, and really makes you miss Toub and the discipline of Lovie Smith.

[AZBearsFan]

21 hours ago, Epyon said:

It's an incredibly lazy comparison.... especially since I specifically quoted PFF regarding Hodges' collegiate production in the same post you quoted, when bringing up Fendi in your response.... It's not me moving goalposts, it's you not reading posts.

As far as Bellamy goes, fine then, Keep Bellamy if you so desperately need him to be the savior of Special Teams....on what is assuredly another rebuilding/non playoff year where we should be trying to develop talent for the future.... I'm sure his extra 5 ST tackles this season will really pay off for us in 2-3 years time when we're hopefully actually in a real position to make a playoff push. But whatever, keep him then,  there's still more than enough other fat on the roster that could easily have been pruned. Deon Bush for example, isn't very good on special teams, nor is he remotely good at his skill position. Long term upside ain't looking so hot either... Mark Sanchez is another one, I get it, he's Mitch's mentor.... but that's also your coach's job, not one of your players' jobs... Hire Sanchez as a position coach if you really want him doing that, but stop wasting a roster slot on him. Then there's the fullback, which unless we dramatically change course from both last season and preseason, is going to see even less field time then Bellamy.... and could easily be replaced by a TE or a depth DL like Unrein (who has lead blocked previously in his career). 3 roster slots right there that could be pruned.

Bush is just like Hodges - a developmental prospect. He plays a position where we have hopefully one guy (for two starting positions) in Jackson who will still be here in 2 years as a fixture starter worth keeping. Hodges plays a position where we already have an adequate veteran starter under contract in Sims and a long term high upside developmental prospect in toe in Shaheen. We need development all over the roster. We aren't in a position to pile up prospects at one position at the expense of others. We don't have NE type depth. We have one set established starter  in our secondary for 4 starting spots and he's 32 and in his 10th year. If we are gonna pile up prospects anywhere on our roster it should be there.

Sanchez should never take a snap for us, and yes what he does would be best done by a coach in being Mitch's mentor, but if Sanchez wasn't here he'd be filling the same role as someone else's backup/mentor, and I'm not going to complain one frickin bit about the team making the investment in a roster spot to a guy they think will help get the most out of the most important player to the future of the franchise. If he adds value to Trubisky's development then Sanchez is worth 25 measurables prospects like Hodges.

Unrein is a DL. Making him your primary FB is a stupid awful terrible idea. He's been a goal line jumbo lead blocker. That's it. 

And back to Bellamy and more ST in general - every team has ST aces. Guys like Bellamy and Sherrick McManis, or Brendan Ayanbadejo or Tim Shaw or Kassim Osgood who add nothing on offense or defense are roster mainstays for a decade or more all over the league and that's a testament to the importance of the role. Their roles are glue guy roles on every team. If anyone should understand how much value good ST units can have it should be Chicago fans. Our current team if it has any chance to succeed this year is going to have a pretty damn small margin for error. The difference between good ST units and the abominations of the Trestman squads in our position can be the difference between 4-12 and 8-8. That's the difference between Fox being fired/not fired or Pace being or not being on the hot seat in 2018. 

[IronMike84]

On 9/4/2017 at 7:14 PM, WindyCity said:

It really is not a 1/3 of the game. If you add up the plays it is more like 1/7.

Sacrificing offense for special teams is idiotic.

The Bears offense was 28th in points last season. That is going to have a much larger impact on your record than any special team.

 

 

Sorry, but championship teams value impeccable special teams play.

[IronMike84]

On 9/5/2017 at 6:08 PM, blkwdw13 said:

Took out the video but I'm pretty sure this was by the same coaching staff that the previous year Aaron Rodgers fumbled and the whole defense stood around and then watched the Packers run it in for a touchdown.  Horrible coaching on both plays, and really makes you miss Toub and the discipline of Lovie Smith.

And that went well beyond Hester. Dave Toub ran a tight ship in all facets of special teams. Even when the Bears were bad, Toub's unit rarely made mistakes.

[blkwdw13]

29 minutes ago, IronMike84 said:

And that went well beyond Hester. Dave Toub ran a tight ship in all facets of special teams. Even when the Bears were bad, Toub's unit rarely made mistakes.

Absolutely that's why I only mentioned Toub, he was the one coach I wanted to stay with the Bears. 

[DABEARSLCF04]

2 hours ago, blkwdw13 said:

Absolutely that's why I only mentioned Toub, he was the one coach I wanted to stay with the Bears. 

Toub also had a lot  of the defensive backfield starters playing full time on ST. Miss them days

[WindyCity]

11 hours ago, IronMike84 said:

Sorry, but championship teams value impeccable special teams play.

They do not value them more than Offense.

 

We are talking about OVER VALUING them.

[Sugashane]

Of course you can't have incompetent special teams coverage, but they are out there for far fewer plays than offense or defense.

You can ride a dominant offense to the playoffs, you can ride a dominant defense to the playoffs. You can't ride a special teams to the playoffs. If you can choose one elite, one good, and one average rating for those three facets, 32 out of 32 GMs/Head coach duos will put special teams as the least important facet.

[Madmike90]

I don't think anyone is saying that Special Teams are more important than Offence...I do however think it's a totally valid point to say your 4th string TE has to be as good a special teams player as he is an offensive player because he is never going to get touches on the offensive side of the ball unless you have catastrophic injury...the bottom RB, WR, TE, OLB, ILB, CB, S all better be able to play on teams or you are going to have problems.

[WindyCity]

4 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

I don't think anyone is saying that Special Teams are more important than Offence...I do however think it's a totally valid point to say your 4th string TE has to be as good a special teams player as he is an offensive player because he is never going to get touches on the offensive side of the ball unless you have catastrophic injury...the bottom RB, WR, TE, OLB, ILB, CB, S all better be able to play on teams or you are going to have problems.

My issue is not the 4th TE or 6th CB

It is the 4th WR being a special teams player. It is the fact that 3/6 WRs on the team are special teams players. We needed to be more aggressive in finding a replacement to Meredith.

[Madmike90]

1 minute ago, WindyCity said:

My issue is not the 4th TE or 6th CB

It is the 4th WR being a special teams player. It is the fact that 3/6 WRs on the team are special teams players. We needed to be more aggressive in finding a replacement to Meredith.

I think that is a totally different argument tho in comparison to the whole Bucky Hodges thing...

On that point yes I think we certainly could have went out and tried to find a better WR than we currently have but you and I both know it's not always that easy...trying to find guys on the trade market can lead to over paying for mediocre talent...I think the position was undercooked before Cam went down...but the worst thing we can do now is overdo it in a panic and burn it.