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Is the Patriots roster actually GOOD? Or is it propped up by coaching?

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For some reason Patriots fans want to prop up their QB instead.  I believe it's 90% Belichick, 10% Brady. 

Before I have all of Boston rising up like it's 1775, I will say that I believe the Packers 2010 Super Bowl was 99% defense, 1% Rodgers, so 10% is a lot of credit to Brady. 

What Tom Brady does is not difficult.  Yes, he is excellent at taking what an offense gives him, he can read a defense like a Dr. Seus book, but credit has to be given to McDaniels as well.  This is not a very difficult offense to run.  Take 2 seconds, pass before any hint of a pass rush can get to you.  A perfect mix of run and pass... There isn't a QB in the NFL who doesn't have the physical ability of Tom Brady for at least his last two Super Bowl wins. 

The same can be said about the majority of the Patriots roster. 

I'm always amazed at how well their defense performs when they've got like zero or maybe one top athlete every single year.  They've got the equivalent of 30-year-olds all over that defense and every single year, regardless of who is actually the coordinator, that defense is top 10 in scoring. 

Brady has had (could be wrong by two seasons here) 4 seasons in which his defense was not top 10 in points against.  That is unprecedented, and yet Brady is given the credit. 

His numbers in the Super Bowl are very pedestrian. 

He averages 28.4 completions   44 attempts    315.3 yards    1.9 touchdowns   .67 interceptions per game. 

His two worst games they win, his absolute best game they lose.  So I don't know why all the credit or a good portion of the credit is given to Brady when he hasn't even gotten to the Super Bowl with a defense outside of top 10 in scoring. 

And his Championship games are even worse.  His Championship game statistics are actually terrible.  Don't have time for full numbers, but he's got 18 touchdowns to 14 interceptions in his Championship games.  It's definitely Belichick. 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

For some reason Patriots fans want to prop up their QB instead.  I believe it's 90% Belichick, 10% Brady. 

Before I have all of Boston rising up like it's 1775, I will say that I believe the Packers 2010 Super Bowl was 99% defense, 1% Rodgers, so 10% is a lot of credit to Brady. 

What Tom Brady does is not difficult.  Yes, he is excellent at taking what an offense gives him, he can read a defense like a Dr. Seus book, but credit has to be given to McDaniels as well.  This is not a very difficult offense to run.  Take 2 seconds, pass before any hint of a pass rush can get to you.  A perfect mix of run and pass... There isn't a QB in the NFL who doesn't have the physical ability of Tom Brady for at least his last two Super Bowl wins. 

The same can be said about the majority of the Patriots roster. 

I'm always amazed at how well their defense performs when they've got like zero or maybe one top athlete every single year.  They've got the equivalent of 30-year-olds all over that defense and every single year, regardless of who is actually the coordinator, that defense is top 10 in scoring. 

Brady has had (could be wrong by two seasons here) 4 seasons in which his defense was not top 10 in points against.  That is unprecedented, and yet Brady is given the credit. 

His numbers in the Super Bowl are very pedestrian. 

 

Between 2001 and 2006, Brady's offense scored 380 without a top tier WR, sometimes without even a 2nd tier WR.

In last 6 years, he had better WR, more experience and rule changes, and he scored 440.

Please explain what Belichick did to improve offense before he foolishly changed the system in 2007.

Remember he almost never talk to his offense.

Stats? Without a top tier speedy WR, would you expect your QB to score 24+? Would you expect QB to leadbwinng drives?

How often  did you see Pats defense played good when offense struggled?

How well their defense played? You mean 22 minutes allowed 31 points against Chiefs? Oh, you only see what you want to see, the defense against a depleted Rams offense.

 

Edited by William Lee

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Posted (edited)

Outpost31, 

Read my 2nd post on first page, you have no idea what is hard for a QB, from neck up.OK?

Edited by William Lee

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The Patriots roster is constructed of players to fit specific roles within the coaching staff's needs. Its not that their roster is bad, its just specific to their team and would therefore not be utilized in the same manner with another coaching staff. Its why players look great with them, go somewhere else, and underwhelm. Its also why they pick up guys off the scrap heap and turn them into bonafide starters.

So, with another coach, their roster would not preform as well, but that is by design.  

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1 minute ago, William Lee said:

Outpost31, 

Read my 2nd post on first page, you have no idea what is hard for a QB, from neck up.OK?

OK.  

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, N4L said:

The Patriots roster is constructed of players to fit specific roles within the coaching staff's needs. Its not that their roster is bad, its just specific to their team and would therefore not be utilized in the same manner with another coaching staff. Its why players look great with them, go somewhere else, and underwhelm. Its also why they pick up guys off the scrap heap and turn them into bonafide starters.

So, with another coach, their roster would not preform as well, but that is by design.  

Did they draft a player like James White before 2014?

If they had, Brady would have 2 more SB at least.

Then what happened before 2007 that enabled Pats offense scored 380 without a top WR?

For god sake, earth must be flat.

Edited by William Lee

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11 minutes ago, William Lee said:

Did they draft a player like James White before 2014?

If they had, Brady would have 2 more SB at least.

Then what happened before 2007 that enabled Pats offense scored 380 without a top WR?

For god sake, earth must be flat.

What are you saying

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2 minutes ago, N4L said:

What are you saying

I think he's saying that the earth is flat and Brady is a system QB.

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2 minutes ago, N4L said:

What are you saying

Read my first and 2nd posts on first page.

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7 hours ago, ET80 said:

Back to football, no need to get personal.

2nd time, there won't be a third time.

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19 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I think he's saying that the earth is flat and Brady is a system QB.

I think he is actually saying that Brady's footballs are flat

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7 minutes ago, N4L said:

I think he is actually saying that Brady's footballs are flat

I don't judge a QB by how entertaining his playing style is.

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1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

For some reason Patriots fans want to prop up their QB instead.  I believe it's 90% Belichick, 10% Brady. 

Then your belief would be wrong.

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

Before I have all of Boston rising up like it's 1775, I will say that I believe the Packers 2010 Super Bowl was 99% defense, 1% Rodgers, so 10% is a lot of credit to Brady. 

The Packers had the #2 DVOA defense. A feat the Patriots didn't accomplish in 15+ years.

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

What Tom Brady does is not difficult.  Yes, he is excellent at taking what an offense gives him, he can read a defense like a Dr. Seus book, but credit has to be given to McDaniels as well.  This is not a very difficult offense to run.  Take 2 seconds, pass before any hint of a pass rush can get to you.  A perfect mix of run and pass... There isn't a QB in the NFL who doesn't have the physical ability of Tom Brady for at least his last two Super Bowl wins. 

It's not difficult yet he is the only QB who can do it consistently. McDaniels or no McDaniels is irrelevant. NE had 2 of their their greatest offenses when McDaniels was not in NE.

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

The same can be said about the majority of the Patriots roster. 

I'm always amazed at how well their defense performs when they've got like zero or maybe one top athlete every single year.  They've got the equivalent of 30-year-olds all over that defense and every single year, regardless of who is actually the coordinator, that defense is top 10 in scoring. 

Because of the exceptional ball controlled offense not because the defense is actually good, it isn't.

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

Brady has had (could be wrong by two seasons here) 4 seasons in which his defense was not top 10 in points against.  That is unprecedented, and yet Brady is given the credit. 

because he deserves the credit for it to keep his defense off the field. Look at Belichick's defenses when Brady does not play. 2000 no top 10 scoring defense, 2008 no top 10 scoring defense. In fact, only in 1 of his 7 seasons as HC without Brady he had a top 10 scoring defense. An obvious trend.

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

His numbers in the Super Bowl are very pedestrian. 

He averages 28.4 completions   44 attempts    315.3 yards    1.9 touchdowns   .67 interceptions per game. 

His two worst games they win, his absolute best game they lose.  So I don't know why all the credit or a good portion of the credit is given to Brady when he hasn't even gotten to the Super Bowl with a defense outside of top 10 in scoring. 

And his Championship games are even worse.  His Championship game statistics are actually terrible.  Don't have time for full numbers, but he's got 18 touchdowns to 14 interceptions in his Championship games.  It's definitely Belichick. 

 

These are the toughest games on the calendar of course he is playing worse. Brady is putting the Pats year after year in position to win in the postseason. Sometimes he plays well, sometimes he doesn't. That's normal. Without Brady, Belichick is a sub .500 coach and would have been fired from NE in short order. The credit is extremely overblown. To say he has had more impact than Brady is crazy talk. QBs run this league and Brady is the best we have seen so far.

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Posted (edited)

SBLIII, 

Some people don't care about the level of supporting casts, and the right way to win.

Like what Brady did between 2001 and 2006 will not impress them, though no QB could have done that with the ****ty squad Belichick gave to Brady.

What is really funny is that Belichick doesn't even talk to his offense, they still insist it is Belichick's system. 

How did Belichick put those receivers at right positions at right time without guiding them on sidelines? It is like claiming that once under Belichick's magic wand,a receiver immediately becomes smarter than Peyton and Rodgers.

Edited by William Lee

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Their teams have talent, but I do think the biggest impact is how their talent is used. What Belichek's Pats have always been better at than anyone else in the league, IMO, is finding players with niches, or incomplete games, or limited skillsets, and figuring out how to make the system maximize them instead of trying to find players to fit the scheme they want to run. This often results in a Pats team that isn't super talented on paper, but every player on that roster is being used as appropriately as humanly possible, and sometimes a mediocre player being used 100% effectively can actually contribute a more positive performance than a borderline elite player being used 50% effectively. Their gameplanning is kind of the reverse, as well. Some teams and coaches will just decide, we're going to get really good at cover 3, or really good at man, and run that regardless. The Pats instead run what the opposition is bad against. So many of their playoff runs have come down to that. Both the Chiefs and Chargers last year ran one scheme on defense in the entire games, so the Pats just ran concepts to beat the schemes they knew would be run. They also have god-tier OL coaching, which really helps. And a few tent-pole players on the roster like Brady.

So I think they are still somewhat talented, but I think more often than not, they have not been the most talented team in the league for their superbowl winning seasons. It is good, though. Even elite coaching can only do so much.

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