turtle28 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 So, Cousins never had to play w/o both Crowder and CT? So I was right, it was a pointless exercise. Sorry you did that woz. Playing w/o both Crowder & CT on the Redskins offense is a very, very big deal. Them and Reed are the chain movers that keep drives going. W/o them we had more and outs. When Cousins or Alex could dump it down to them on a 5-10 yard pass and have them run 5-10 more yards that's huge for our offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaiphoon Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 6 hours ago, Woz said: Okay. I'll bite I'm only going to consider two years for Cousins: 2015 and 2017. Why those two? Thompson barely was part of the offense prior to 2015 (zero touches on offense in his rookie season of 2013 (in four games), and only 3 carries and 7 targets in 2014 (in two games)). Jamison Crowder wasn't drafted until 2015. All three played all 16 games in 2016. Kirk Cousins wasn't the primary starter until 2015 (and didn't play with Thompson on the offense in 2014) 2015 Thompson played in 13 games (missed games 7 (the "You like that?!" game), 13, and 14); Crowder played in all 16 Games when Thompson played Cousins' stats for games 1-6: 151-228 (66.2%), 1420 yards (6.23 YPA), 6 TD (2.6% TD%), 8 INT (3.5% INT%), 77.4 RTG Cousins' stats for games 8-12: 106-155 (68.4%), 1269 yards (8.19 YPA), 8 TD (5.2% TD%), 2 INT (1.3% INT%), 105.0 RTG Cousins' stats for games 15-16: 43-61 (70.5%), 541 yards (8.87 YPA), 7 TD (11.5% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 136.0 RTG TOTAL: 300-444 (67.6%), 3230 yards (7.27 YPA), 21 TD (4.7% TD%), 10 INT (2.3% INT%), 95.1 RTG Games when Thompson did not play Cousins' stats for game 7: 33-40 (82.5%), 317 yards (7.93 YPA), 3 TD (7.5% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 124.7 RTG Cousins' stats for games 13-14: 46-59 (78.0%), 619 yards (10.5 YPA), 5 TD (8.5% TD%, 1 INT (1.7% INT%), 131.6 RTG TOTAL: 79-99 (79.8%), 936 yards (9.45 YPA), 8 TD (8.1% TD%), 1 INT (1.0% INT%), 128.8 RTG 2017 Thompson played the first 10 games (including is only career start against San Francisco in Game 5); Crowder played in all 16 Games when Thompson played Cousins' stats for games 1-10: 230-345 (66.7%), 2796 yards (8.10 YPA), 17 TD (4.9% TD%), 5 INT (1.4% INT%), 101.8 RTG Cousins' stats for games 11-16: 117-195 (60.0%), 1297 yards (6.65 YPA), 10 TD (5.1 TD%), 8 INT (4.1% INT%), 79.8 RTG 2017 saw the only game that Crowder missed in his first three seasons (week 8) Cousins' stats for game 8: 21-31 (67.7%), 247 yards (7.97 YPA), 0 TD (0% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 91.7 RTG Thompson's stats for game 8 (for what it's worth): 4 carries, 20 yards (5.00 YPC), 6 targets, 4 catches (66.7% catch rate), 11 yards (2.75 yards per reception, 1.83 yards per target) [Ed. note: not what we call earth shattering] So, there exists no game where Cousins played without both Thompson and Crowder. So, in 2015, Cousins did substantially better without Thompson in the lineup, but did substantially worse in 2017 when Thompson went down. Perhaps by 2017 Washington had more fully installed Thompson as a feature part of the offense? Or that Cousins trusted/relied on him more after playing together for essentially three years? Dunno. Crowder was there the for almost the entire time. Alex Smith (games 1-10) with Thompson (games 1-4, 7) and Crowder (games 1-4, 7) With Thompson and Crowder Smith's stats for game 1-4: 89-135 (65.9%), 1042 yards (7.72 YPA), 4 TD (3.0% TD%), 2 INT (1.5% INT%), 92.9 RTG Smith's stats for game 7: 20-32 (62.5%), 178 yards (5.56 YPA), 1 TD (3.1% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 87.8 RTG TOTAL: 109-167 (65.2%), 1220 yards (7.31 YPA), 5 TD (3.0% TD%), 2 INT (1.2% INT%), 91.9 RTG Without Thompson and Crowder Smith's stats for games 5-6: 35-61 (57.4%), 341 yards (5.59 YPA), 3 TD (4.9% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 89.6 RTG Smith's stats for games 8-10: 61-100 (61.0%), 619 yards (6.19 YPA), 2 TD (2.0% TD%), 3 INT (3.0% INT%), 72.9 RTG TOTAL: 96-161 (59.6%), 960 yards (5.96YPA), 5 TD (3.1% TD%), 3 INT (1.9% INT%), 79.2 RTG So, Smith depended heavily on his underneath receivers and when they went down, he collapsed. One game you have consistently ignored was week 2 against Indianapolis. The team was healthy then (Thompson, Crowder, Jordan Reed, Josh Doctson and Paul Richardson all played). Smith had (statistically speaking) his best game, but it almost was entirely based on garbage time stats. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809160was.htm#all_pbp Next to last drive: 54 yards passing on 8 pass plays (7 of 8). Took ~2:30 minutes. Team was down 21-9 Last drive: 56 yards passing on 10 pass plays. (6 of 8, with a sack and scramble). Took ~3:30 minutes while still down 21-9. 110 yards on 13-16 eating up 6 minutes of the fourth quarter. When he played like it didn't matter, but it absolutely did. Which would have been a significant downgrade in the offense. Cousins' three full time starting seasons averaged out to be 4392 yards and 27 touchdowns. Your projected stats would have been at best almost 800 yards and 7 touchdowns less than they were with Kirk. And this is the biggest crock of **** of them all. I was jumping up and down about how you were picking a small sample size by looking only at Smith's 2017 numbers and not his career numbers. You swore up and down that 2017 was his new normal. Well, let's compare what he did in Washington his career, shall we? Career Completion percentage: 62.4% [vs. 62.5% in DC] Yards per attempt: 6.89 [vs. 6.65] TD%: 3.9% [vs 3.0%] INT%: 2.0% [vs 1.5%] That looks pretty similar doesn't it? So, don't give me this BS about we made our decision on a small sample size. You bought into the small sample size by convincing yourself (like Bruce Allen did) that Smith's 2017 season was reality, but ignored the fact that he played in one of the most quarterback friendly offenses with the most dangerous vertical threat in the league and one of the most explosive running backs in the league. Oh yeah, and one of the best tight ends in the league to boot. And further ignored the fact that he played in the same system for four previous years and looked pedestrian doing it. To paraphrase the great philosopher Green: "He is who he we thought he was! ... and we paid him like he was someone different!" Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!! Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaiphoon Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 4 hours ago, turtle28 said: So, Cousins never had to play w/o both Crowder and CT? So I was right, it was a pointless exercise. Sorry you did that woz. Playing w/o both Crowder & CT on the Redskins offense is a very, very big deal. Them and Reed are the chain movers that keep drives going. W/o them we had more and outs. When Cousins or Alex could dump it down to them on a 5-10 yard pass and have them run 5-10 more yards that's huge for our offense. You read all of @Woz post and that is what you focus on? I mean...I realize WHY (because he destroyed your ridiculous argument about Alex) but Im seriously in awe at the brazenness of your gambit. Kudos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 7 hours ago, Woz said: Okay. I'll bite I'm only going to consider two years for Cousins: 2015 and 2017. Why those two? Thompson barely was part of the offense prior to 2015 (zero touches on offense in his rookie season of 2013 (in four games), and only 3 carries and 7 targets in 2014 (in two games)). Jamison Crowder wasn't drafted until 2015. All three played all 16 games in 2016. Kirk Cousins wasn't the primary starter until 2015 (and didn't play with Thompson on the offense in 2014) 2015 Thompson played in 13 games (missed games 7 (the "You like that?!" game), 13, and 14); Crowder played in all 16 Games when Thompson played Cousins' stats for games 1-6: 151-228 (66.2%), 1420 yards (6.23 YPA), 6 TD (2.6% TD%), 8 INT (3.5% INT%), 77.4 RTG Cousins' stats for games 8-12: 106-155 (68.4%), 1269 yards (8.19 YPA), 8 TD (5.2% TD%), 2 INT (1.3% INT%), 105.0 RTG Cousins' stats for games 15-16: 43-61 (70.5%), 541 yards (8.87 YPA), 7 TD (11.5% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 136.0 RTG TOTAL: 300-444 (67.6%), 3230 yards (7.27 YPA), 21 TD (4.7% TD%), 10 INT (2.3% INT%), 95.1 RTG Games when Thompson did not play Cousins' stats for game 7: 33-40 (82.5%), 317 yards (7.93 YPA), 3 TD (7.5% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 124.7 RTG Cousins' stats for games 13-14: 46-59 (78.0%), 619 yards (10.5 YPA), 5 TD (8.5% TD%, 1 INT (1.7% INT%), 131.6 RTG TOTAL: 79-99 (79.8%), 936 yards (9.45 YPA), 8 TD (8.1% TD%), 1 INT (1.0% INT%), 128.8 RTG 2017 Thompson played the first 10 games (including is only career start against San Francisco in Game 5); Crowder played in all 16 Games when Thompson played Cousins' stats for games 1-10: 230-345 (66.7%), 2796 yards (8.10 YPA), 17 TD (4.9% TD%), 5 INT (1.4% INT%), 101.8 RTG Cousins' stats for games 11-16: 117-195 (60.0%), 1297 yards (6.65 YPA), 10 TD (5.1 TD%), 8 INT (4.1% INT%), 79.8 RTG 2017 saw the only game that Crowder missed in his first three seasons (week 8) Cousins' stats for game 8: 21-31 (67.7%), 247 yards (7.97 YPA), 0 TD (0% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 91.7 RTG Thompson's stats for game 8 (for what it's worth): 4 carries, 20 yards (5.00 YPC), 6 targets, 4 catches (66.7% catch rate), 11 yards (2.75 yards per reception, 1.83 yards per target) [Ed. note: not what we call earth shattering] So, there exists no game where Cousins played without both Thompson and Crowder. So, in 2015, Cousins did substantially better without Thompson in the lineup, but did substantially worse in 2017 when Thompson went down. Perhaps by 2017 Washington had more fully installed Thompson as a feature part of the offense? Or that Cousins trusted/relied on him more after playing together for essentially three years? Dunno. Crowder was there the for almost the entire time. Alex Smith (games 1-10) with Thompson (games 1-4, 7) and Crowder (games 1-4, 7) With Thompson and Crowder Smith's stats for game 1-4: 89-135 (65.9%), 1042 yards (7.72 YPA), 4 TD (3.0% TD%), 2 INT (1.5% INT%), 92.9 RTG Smith's stats for game 7: 20-32 (62.5%), 178 yards (5.56 YPA), 1 TD (3.1% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 87.8 RTG TOTAL: 109-167 (65.2%), 1220 yards (7.31 YPA), 5 TD (3.0% TD%), 2 INT (1.2% INT%), 91.9 RTG Without Thompson and Crowder Smith's stats for games 5-6: 35-61 (57.4%), 341 yards (5.59 YPA), 3 TD (4.9% TD%), 0 INT (0% INT%), 89.6 RTG Smith's stats for games 8-10: 61-100 (61.0%), 619 yards (6.19 YPA), 2 TD (2.0% TD%), 3 INT (3.0% INT%), 72.9 RTG TOTAL: 96-161 (59.6%), 960 yards (5.96YPA), 5 TD (3.1% TD%), 3 INT (1.9% INT%), 79.2 RTG So, Smith depended heavily on his underneath receivers and when they went down, he collapsed. One game you have consistently ignored was week 2 against Indianapolis. The team was healthy then (Thompson, Crowder, Jordan Reed, Josh Doctson and Paul Richardson all played). Smith had (statistically speaking) his best game, but it almost was entirely based on garbage time stats. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201809160was.htm#all_pbp Next to last drive: 54 yards passing on 8 pass plays (7 of 8). Took ~2:30 minutes. Team was down 21-9 Last drive: 56 yards passing on 10 pass plays. (6 of 8, with a sack and scramble). Took ~3:30 minutes while still down 21-9. 110 yards on 13-16 eating up 6 minutes of the fourth quarter. When he played like it didn't matter, but it absolutely did. Which would have been a significant downgrade in the offense. Cousins' three full time starting seasons averaged out to be 4392 yards and 27 touchdowns. Your projected stats would have been at best almost 800 yards and 7 touchdowns less than they were with Kirk. And this is the biggest crock of **** of them all. I was jumping up and down about how you were picking a small sample size by looking only at Smith's 2017 numbers and not his career numbers. You swore up and down that 2017 was his new normal. Well, let's compare what he did in Washington his career, shall we? Career Completion percentage: 62.4% [vs. 62.5% in DC] Yards per attempt: 6.89 [vs. 6.65] TD%: 3.9% [vs 3.0%] INT%: 2.0% [vs 1.5%] That looks pretty similar doesn't it? So, don't give me this BS about we made our decision on a small sample size. You bought into the small sample size by convincing yourself (like Bruce Allen did) that Smith's 2017 season was reality, but ignored the fact that he played in one of the most quarterback friendly offenses with the most dangerous vertical threat in the league and one of the most explosive running backs in the league. Oh yeah, and one of the best tight ends in the league to boot. And further ignored the fact that he played in the same system for four previous years and looked pedestrian doing it. To paraphrase the great philosopher Green: "He is who he we thought he was! ... and we paid him like he was someone different!" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) On 7/3/2019 at 8:58 PM, Thaiphoon said: You read all of @Woz post and that is what you focus on? I mean...I realize WHY (because he destroyed your ridiculous argument about Alex) but Im seriously in awe at the brazenness of your gambit. Kudos. I've maintained that we’ll never know what Alex would have been in our offense in year 2/3/4 and with better weapons. I totally accept Woz’s stats but it was a very small sample size with Smith in a Redskins uniform and unfortunately he never had everyone healthy on the field at once at his disposal all season bc even in week 1 PRich was playing with a broken clavicle. I'll also continue to say what I said in the previous post, no one can deny how important having one of the two - Crowder or CT - is to our offense, especially since we didn't re-sign Garcon in 2017. You can throw my post in the trash if you want, don't care, that's how I see it. I just hope Haskins develops into what I believe he can be bc Dan & Allen totally botched the Cousins contract situation dating all the way back to 2016. Cousins is now a top 10 QB in the league and has been since 2015 and will be higher w/in the next few years given the age of 5 of the top 10 QBs. If Haskins doesn't develop Allen will even look worse than he currently does, if that's possible. It's only one play, but this was a key play in us beating the Giants Oct 28th, 5 weeks later we got spanked by them at home when we didn't have CT/Prich or Alex. It was also another game Crowder would miss. https://www.redskins.com/video/film-breakdown-catch-by-paul-richardson-jr Just shows you the importance of Prich & CT. CT had a key block, blocking a 240-pound linebacker in the hole so Alex could get off the the pass. Edited July 5, 2019 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT14 Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 On 7/4/2019 at 5:43 AM, turtle28 said: I've maintained that we’ll never know what Alex would have been in our offense in year 2/3/4 and with better weapons. I totally accept Woz’s stats but it was a very small sample size with Smith in a Redskins uniform and unfortunately he never had everyone healthy on the field at once at his disposal all season bc even in week 1 PRich was playing with a broken clavicle. Then why the heck did you keep bringing up the "Alex Smith has a great deep ball" thing from his 2017 year when it was a small sample size from his career? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, MikeT14 said: Then why the heck did you keep bringing up the "Alex Smith has a great deep ball" thing from his 2017 year when it was a small sample size from his career? I don’t. Others keep saying he doesn't and I keep pointing out in order to have an effective deep ball you have to have a WR who can consistently get behind the defense and make plays. The Redskins didn't have that in 2017 after Djax was gone and Kirk’s deep game suffered and last year we had PRich who made a few plays deep but did so on a broken clavicle and eventually had to go to IR after playing with it for 9 weeks and through most of training camp. Hopefully for whoever is QB this year PRich stays healthy, Doctson makes some plays on 50/50 balls downfield and McLaurin flashes as a deep threat too. Edited July 5, 2019 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Draper Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 Alex Smith thinks about returning to football? I think of banging the Feres Twins ( google them) neither will probably happen, but let’s hope they do Happy 4th Bro’s 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSkinGM Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Alex finally just got out of that Fixator thing- after 8 months. All in for 2021 ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT14 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 On 7/5/2019 at 1:27 PM, turtle28 said: I don’t. Others keep saying he doesn't and I keep pointing out in order to have an effective deep ball you have to have a WR who can consistently get behind the defense and make plays. The Redskins didn't have that in 2017 after Djax was gone and Kirk’s deep game suffered and last year we had PRich who made a few plays deep but did so on a broken clavicle and eventually had to go to IR after playing with it for 9 weeks and through most of training camp. Hopefully for whoever is QB this year PRich stays healthy, Doctson makes some plays on 50/50 balls downfield and McLaurin flashes as a deep threat too. I just saw this. You did. I doubt you do now, but you certainly did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 hour ago, MikeT14 said: I just saw this. You did. I doubt you do now, but you certainly did. Yeah after we traded for Alex judging off how he did in 2017 and assuming that PRich & Crowder would stay healthy and they clearly didn't. The injuries to our playmakers entirely changed what our offense was able to do in the passing game last year, just like our passing game was much less potent from 2016 to 2017 after we didn't re-sign Djax and Garcon. It's not that hard to see that when our playmakers weren't available that our passing game wasn't as effective in 2017 and 2018. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT14 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, turtle28 said: Yeah after we traded for Alex judging off how he did in 2017 and assuming that PRich & Crowder would stay healthy and they clearly didn't. The injuries to our playmakers entirely changed what our offense was able to do in the passing game last year, just like our passing game was much less potent from 2016 to 2017 after we didn't re-sign Djax and Garcon. It's not that hard to see that when our playmakers weren't available that our passing game wasn't as effective in 2017 and 2018. But the whole point was that you kept saying Alex Smith was going to be this incredible deep ball guy for us because of a one year anomaly and P-Rich et al. The counter argument was that Alex Smith is who he is (pre-2017) and that it didn't matter, health or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, MikeT14 said: But the whole point was that you kept saying Alex Smith was going to be this incredible deep ball guy for us because of a one year anomaly and P-Rich et al. The counter argument was that Alex Smith is who he is (pre-2017) and that it didn't matter, health or not. I already explained my thought process. I refuse to continuously legislate a thought that I had a year ago based off of everyone being healthy all year or mostly healthy all year which didn't happen. Everyone else can be happy that our season went the way it did last year all they want so they can say they were right. Congratulations Edited July 16, 2019 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Micheal Irving pointed out how Dak Prescott played better with Cooper than he did with Dez despite how much time the duo's played together. Dez is the Throw it up He'll go get it type of Guy while Cooper is more of a Route Runner/Separation type WR. This is something the Skins definitely need to look at going forward with Haskins and the guys they put around him. Also I can see how that Affected Smith's numbers here compared to playing in KC. Smith receiving class here compared to while in KC was completely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: Micheal Irving pointed out how Dak Prescott played better with Cooper than he did with Dez despite how much time the duo's played together. Dez is the Throw it up He'll go get it type of Guy while Cooper is more of a Route Runner/Separation type WR. This is something the Skins definitely need to look at going forward with Haskins and the guys they put around him. Also I can see how that Affected Smith's numbers here compared to playing in KC. Smith receiving class here compared to while in KC was completely different. The injuries to PRich, CT & Crowder were huge bc they are those types of guys. They are the types of guys who can get the ball in their hands and can take it to the house on any play. They are kick returner type guys and when you lose 3 of them in one season its hard to replace that. I'm hoping that Quinn and McLaurin can be those kind of guys for Haskins and our young running backs in the future, Guice & Love. Edited July 16, 2019 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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