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Does our defence look as good to anybody else as it does to me?

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Good stuff outpost. Pettine has had some high praise for Martinez this offseason. Martinez himself has specifically said he understands better when and where help is so this year he can take more shots at big plays when he knows he’s covered. Rodgers went out of his way to praise the QB of the defense. I think the trust with Amos will help him too. And I’d tramon plays inside as nickel/dime, that will be two trust worthy guys so Martinez can let loose with even more confidence. 

Martinez has been a very good player. I’m excited because it sounds like he’s got one more big step in him. Lock him up now, Gutey. 

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Martinez’ Measurables

 

His movement skills (40, 10, 3 cone and shuttle) average about the top 70 percentile of ILBs. 

His superb recognition and game speed have him playing more like it’s 90% though. I agree, the measurables have people sleeping on him still even after he’s proven he’s good. 

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38 minutes ago, boratt said:

Martinez’ Measurables

 

His movement skills (40, 10, 3 cone and shuttle) average about the top 70 percentile of ILBs. 

His superb recognition and game speed have him playing more like it’s 90% though. I agree, the measurables have people sleeping on him still even after he’s proven he’s good. 

We've got that athletic freak in Burks but I'm a big fan of Martinez and hope we extend him before he hits free agency. I'm hopeful Burks makes a big second year leap as well as that would definitely bode well for our defense. 

Martinez struggled quite a bit his rookie year as well. 

 

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On the bright side, we have a deep DL/EDGE rotation and it is a nickel/dime NFL now so on most snaps I think we can get by with just Martinez at ILB. I think this is what will probably happen actually. 

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Posted (edited)

Who are our top four pass rushers?

Zadarius/Clark/Daniels/(Gary/Fackrell/Preston)

 

If we’re playing straight up defense with four rushing the QB and cover 2 behind, do you guys feel like we can get pressure with  four this year? I like our chances. 

 

Edited by boratt

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First and second down, I’m hoping to see a mix of players

Lancaster, Lowry and theoretically, Gary are all good run players. We’re gonna wanna rest our best pass rushers in early downs. 

3rd down will probably typically look something like this:

DL Daniels/Clark/Zadarius

LB Fackrell/Martinez/Preston

something like this allows for a variety of 3, 4 or 5 man rushes. 

3 man rushes are nice sometimes. You can bracket two top weapons and still play coverage across the board with a safety deep. Or bracket one and play cover 2. If you can get some pressure with three, it’s a nice wrinkle. 

Now there are a whole bunch of 4 man rush options. Preston or Fackrell could be the 4th guy. Never know. And Martinez has a knack for timing blitzes and getting home so you could also drop both Preston and Fackrell and bring a surprise up the middle. 

If you have the players, four man rushes should be the staple because if you can get pressure with 4, the secondary has a much easier job keeping that 7th man in coverage.

Then we have the 5 man rushes.  I see us doing less of this as long as our pass rushers are fresh and healthy. It’s always better if you can win with 3 or 4. And I think this years packers can. 

 

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4 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

Everybody acts like Blake Martinez is some okay run stopping ILB and that's it,

From PackersWire:

"Even Martinez is feeling more comfortable in Year 2 of Mike Pettine’s defense. He specifically noted his comfort level in the scheme against the run.

“I have a great grasp of the defense compared to last OTAs,” Martinez said. “I’m excited about stepping into that at fall camp and showing off all the improvements I’ve made. For me, it was the run game. I wasn’t fully understanding where and when I could attack and be aggressive. Being able to show that once we get the pads on will be big for me.”

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5 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

Define playmaker.  Is it one who makes plays?  Define a play. 

Let's play playmaker. 

Interception = 1
Forced fumble = 1
Sack = .5
PDef = .25
Tackle = .1

Darius Leonard = 22.6
Luke Kuechly = 16.3
Bobby Wagner = 14.15
Roquan Smith = 13.65
Lavonte David = 12.65
Blake Martinez = 12.35

You can name an ILB and I will provide their playmaker rankings, it's just those are the only ones coming to mind right now. 

So you've got 5 ILB ahead of Martinez, but then you've got to stop and consider the defenses those other players were on.  Then consider Martinez and the defense he was on.  Clark, Daniels, King, Wilkerson all on IR by season's end.  I don't even remember who our starting safeties were in the final four games of the season.  I want to say Campbell and Brice, but I think it was Campbell and Tramon.  Jaire Alexander missed games, our pass rush was Matthews and Perry.  Our pass rush was Matthews and Perry, then Matthews and Fackrell. 

Consider that totally made up on the spot playmaker ranking system, then consider Blake's second year score of 14.1.  Then consider what our defense looked like in 2017. 

 

Dang, that's weird. Why do I not remember him making many plays last year?

... Oh, it's because he didn't. He had 0 turnovers (INTs or FFs) on the year last season. :|

Unless the goal was to make him look better than he actually was, you may need to revise that system.

He did do a pretty fine job rushing the passer, yes, I will give him that, but that leads into the next part...

 

5 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

Everybody acts like Blake Martinez is some okay run stopping ILB and that's it, but that couldn't be further from the truth.  He's been making plays his entire career. 

(*snip*)

I'm sick of everybody here acting like Blake Martinez is some meh player when he's actually very good in spite of very bad around him.  If he had been a first round draft pick, people around here would be calling him the second coming of Brian Urlacher, and yet since he was a 4th round draft pick he sucks. 

It's not the truth, but it's not THAT far from it, either. Blake allowed 7 plays of 20+ yards against the pass last season -- career worst -- and towards the end of it, Pettine regularly subbed him out for Josh Jones (who himself isn't great in coverage).

So it would be fair to say he's a good run-stopping ILB who also offers some good pass-rush/blitz ability, but is also sub-par in coverage.

All said, I would say he's "above-average," maybe even "good," which in my books would be better than "meh" or "okay" (but I'm not sure how you define those terms). He's certainly not elite, though, and I wouldn't say he's in the next tier down, either.

You cannot honestly tell me that Blake is really somewhere close to Lavonte David or Bobby Wagner in that respect (coverage). No OC is afraid to throw at Blake Martinez. They do it regularly, and will have a pretty good success rate if they do so.

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9 hours ago, Gopher Trace said:

Oh, it's because he didn't. He had 0 turnovers (INTs or FFs) on the year last season. :|

Okay, so plays are only turnovers.  Now we're getting somewhere.  Has to has the turnovers. 

Quote

You cannot honestly tell me that Blake is really somewhere close to Lavonte David or Bobby Wagner in that respect (coverage). No OC is afraid to throw at Blake Martinez. They do it regularly, and will have a pretty good success rate if they do so.

I didn't say either of those things.  I said that Martinez has shown he's as capable of having strong seasons as those two, and I brought up who he had to play with in each of his first two seasons.  What kind of seasons do you think David or Wagner would have if they'd played in Green Bay the last two seasons? 

It's convenient for you that you said nothing about speed because we both know you're thinking of his speed.  You along with everybody else think he's incapable of being a playmaker because he's not fast enough.  He's already shown that ability, and he showed it most in his second year under Capers, so to act like he can't show more again in his second year with Pettine is some kind of speedism BS where every ILB has to run like a DB. 

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15 hours ago, Golfman said:

We've got that athletic freak in Burks but I'm a big fan of Martinez and hope we extend him before he hits free agency. I'm hopeful Burks makes a big second year leap as well as that would definitely bode well for our defense. 

Martinez struggled quite a bit his rookie year as well. 

 

Not sure I'm buying that part.  The best thing about Martinez is his brain.  And he was handed the defensive helmet right away in his first camp.  Hasn't let it go, either.  Pretty big fan of his, so maybe I blacked out some of his rookie issues.  

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Team is a Plus against the run.  Average against the pass.

Pass rush should be spread out nicely, but we lack the "Man" to get it done.  I'm okay with it, because i think the "Man" will emerge (Z) and that collectively the unit is going to be very, very good.  But, as it starts out...I'd say average to average plus.  End of year, I think we are going to really like this rush.

Weak at corner due to health issues with King, age/limited athletic ability in Tramon and undetermined progression of Jackson and Brown.  

Weak at safety due to a wildcard in the rookie, Savage.

Many of these weaknesses get eliminated with game experience and health.  Gonna be fun to watch.  Again, thinking this year it is all about learning everything and progressing together while being competitive.  Next year we should be big time threats for the title.

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2 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

Okay, so plays are only turnovers.  Now we're getting somewhere.  Has to has the turnovers. 

See, I knew you would try to play this game, so I was careful with how I phrased this.

me:
"Why do I not remember him making many plays last year?
... Oh, it's because he didn't
(make many). He had 0 turnovers (INTs or FFs) on the year last season."
He did do a pretty fine job rushing the passer, yes, I will give him that, but(...)

He had no production against the pass. Yes, he did make other plays, I have granted him that, but it's hard to call him a playmaker when you do not show up at all in one whole important aspect of the game (pass coverage). And it's not like he was invisible because he was lockdown, he gave up a lot of plays.

Or forced-fumbles, which you can make both against the run and on pass-rush plays, but he did not.

I don't want all this beating up on him to imply I think he's a BAD player. He's solid, arguably the best we've had inside since Barnett.

Yet if anyone is so content with his play as to think that nonetheless pursuing a true stud-machine in the mold of a Kuechly or even LVE as a rookie is more trouble than it'd be worth, that's small-minded and much too complacent, IMO.

And I daresay the staff agrees with me, as evidenced by drafting an undersized, athletic ILB last year and surrendering additional picks to do so (Burks).

 

2 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

I didn't say either of those things.  I said that Martinez has shown he's as capable of having strong seasons as those two, and I brought up who he had to play with in each of his first two seasons.  What kind of seasons do you think David or Wagner would have if they'd played in Green Bay the last two seasons? 

Your grading system gave him a comparable rating to guys who are actually elite, which shows that it isn't an accurate or useful metric.

Now, I will give the benefit-of-the-doubt and assume that masking his total lack of turnover production was not intentional, just the product of a hastily put together grading system.

Where your opinion of him and mine separate is that, to you, he is a playmaker because his statistical production is good enough to qualify. To me, the stats are one part of the equation (one where he still leaves wanting somewhat), but stats alone are not it...

People do not use the term "playmaker" on just anyone who makes plays, otherwise, almost any player could claim the title and the word would not mean much of anything. Typically, the word is reserved for upper-echelon players, whose impact cannot be fully appreciated by the plays they make but also the plays they can make, which opposing OCs have to take into account and re-work their gameplan to avoid (and yet, they still find ways to make them). It's why teams will throw at Martinez and not at Bobby Wagner (as often).

(...)

Lavonte David has been elite on a defense that has been as bad on-paper or worse, so I see no reason to doubt that he would still produce about the same with us. Wagner has had good/better talent around him, but at the end of the day, I think elite players generally produce regardless, and that cast generally matters less on defense than offense.

2 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

It's convenient for you that you said nothing about speed because we both know you're thinking of his speed.  You along with everybody else think he's incapable of being a playmaker because he's not fast enough.  He's already shown that ability, and he showed it most in his second year under Capers, so to act like he can't show more again in his second year with Pettine is some kind of speedism BS where every ILB has to run like a DB. 

Not really, but this would not be the first time you have lectured me about something other people said that you take exception with.

"There's NO SUCH THING as SCHEMING GUYS OPENNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!" >:( :S :P

 

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21 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

Martinez could have 10 sacks, 3 interceptions, 13 passes defended and 4 forced fumbles and people would still assume he's not a playmaker because he didn't have a good 40 time. 

People act like speed is synonymous with making plays. 

Literally 97% of people on this subforum would take Roquan Smith over Darius Leonard right now because Leonard ran a 4.7 40 yard dash.  Leonard just had arguably the best rookie season for an ILB of all-time, but everybody's still expecting Roquan Smith to be a nightmare for 10 seasons because he's fast. 

There is nothing Darius Leonard can do physically that Martinez can't do physically. 

Leonard:
6'2, 234, 34.5 arm length, 10.25 hand, 4.7 40, 1.69 10 yard split, 2.77 20 yard split, 4.63 20 yard shuttle, 7.37 3 cone, 38 vertical, 10 ft 8 inch broad, bench press 20 reps. 

Martinez:
6'2, 237, 31.5 arm, 11 hand, 4.71 40, 1.61 10 yard split, 2.73 20 yard split, 4.2 20 yard shuttle, 6.98 3 cone, 28.5 vertical, 9 ft 9 inch broad, 22 bench press reps, 27 wonderlic. 

So I guess I was wrong.  Leonard can jump 10 inches higher and broad jump a foot shorter.  And he's .01 seconds slower. 

While I agree with what you are saying about Martinez, he is a stud and is very underrated by Packers fans, I think I would still take Roquan Smith over him. 

Roquan has HOF potential and while he is fast, its not because of his speed. 

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On 6/22/2019 at 10:19 AM, Outpost31 said:

Player I'm most excited about is Savage.  He is our best hope at anything close to Nick Collins we have had since Nick Collins.  Add an actual pass rush and quarterbacks might be afraid to throw against us. 

Quarterbacks have not been afraid of our defense since 2011, and 2011 only because they had to force things to keep up with Rodgers. 

Jaire Alexander and Darnell Savage have, I think, the talent and physical ability to be the next Sherman/Thomas.  Except Alexander can actually match up with receivers all over the field in man and in zone. 

Wow, that was quick.  Already comparing them to generational, hall of fame players.  What next?  They Kyler Fackrell and Lawrence Taylor comparision?  Maybe the Zadarius SMith and Reggie White one?  

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1 hour ago, SSG said:

Wow, that was quick.  Already comparing them to generational, hall of fame players.  What next?  They Kyler Fackrell and Lawrence Taylor comparision?  Maybe the Zadarius SMith and Reggie White one?  

You think LT was that good?

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