Does our defence look as good to anybody else as it does to me?

[Norm]

26 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Impossible.  Blake Martinez does not make plays.  Even more impossible he had more passing game defeats than Bobby Wagner.  Impossible.

Yeah but players like Wagner force 27 fumbles and have 38 interceptions every year

[Gopher Trace]

Quote

As a reminder, a defender is credited with a defeat any time he makes one of the following plays:

• A tackle that results in a loss of yardage, including sacks.
• Any play that results in a turnover, including tipped passes which are then intercepted.
• Any tackle or tipped pass that leads to a stop on third or fourth down.

lol, another very educative and not at all simplistic grading system. Tipped pass, INT ... same thing.

And I suppose we now must accept that Kenny Clark is not an elite interior DL because he's not up there with the venerable Denico Autry and Jarran Reed in "defeat" stats. Shoot, here I thought we had an ascending young talent in the middle of our defensive line, but I guess he's a JAG because some wonky Football Outsiders system says so.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Gopher Trace

[Gopher Trace]

Can't wait for the season to start so Outpost can repeatedly shriek "DIDN'T HAPPEN! NOT A PLAYMAKER!" every time Martinez, like, falls on a loose football or something.

It's gonna be L I T

[ThatJerkDave]

3 hours ago, Norm said:

Yeah but players like Wagner force 27 fumbles and have 38 interceptions every year

That's why we vote for him for MVP, Precious!

[AlexGreen#20]

7 hours ago, Gopher Trace said:

lol, another very educative and not at all simplistic grading system. Tipped pass, INT ... same thing.

And I suppose we now must accept that Kenny Clark is not an elite interior DL because he's not up there with the venerable Denico Autry and Jarran Reed in "defeat" stats. Shoot, here I thought we had an ascending young talent in the middle of our defensive line, but I guess he's a JAG because some wonky Football Outsiders system says so.

An elite NT probably isn't going to have a ton of running game defeats. If he's taking away his gap and forcing the back to find other gaps, his teammates are the ones who will benefit from his play. You know, a guy like Martinez.

Clark isn't playing full time in the pressure package, he's never going to have the pass defeats that a guy who is doing so will have.

[Arthur Penske]

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 3:58 PM, Gopher Trace said:

 Looks solid, could use a bona-fide playmaker at ILB and better CB depth.

How many teams in the NFL have better CB depth? Health is obviously a question, but very few teams have what we've got at CB when healthy.

[Gopher Trace]

8 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

An elite NT probably isn't going to have a ton of running game defeats. If he's taking away his gap and forcing the back to find other gaps, .

I mean, if you had kept reading past "not an elite interior DL" then surely you would not have missed the heavy sarcasm and understood that I was making a point about Football Outsider's grading system rather than any point about Kenny Clark.

Nonetheless...

8 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

his teammates are the ones who will benefit from his play. You know, a guy like Martinez

... making this point was a great service to me! Gold star for the day 

[Gopher Trace]

5 hours ago, Arthur Penske said:

How many teams in the NFL have better CB depth? Health is obviously a question, but very few teams have what we've got at CB when healthy.

Basically any team that has more than 1 reliable starter, at a time when you basically start three players at the position.

Jaire is the only stable thing at CB (and even he has always been a little bit injury-prone). After him we have...

-- Talented but oft-injured presumable starter Kevin King. I love the guy's physical tools but you just can't count on him.
-- An aging vet pushing 40 in T-Will.
-- A wild-card in Tony Brown
-- A second-rounder who looked far less impressive than the UDFA mentioned above. (I'm not gonna call him a bust yet, but I was a skeptic from the beginning)
-- A sixth-round rookie (albeit, one who has a pretty impressive physical makeup)
-- Umm... (*looks up Packers depth-chart via Google*) ... ... ... Will Redmond -?

I mean, sure, there are some teams that may be even worse off at CB, but those teams will probably fare miserably this season, and I assume we are aspiring to be closer to the best teams rather than the worst teams so we should concern ourselves with the exceptional few rather than the average team.

[OneTwoSixFive]

It is very  difficult to have any surety about how the CB unit as a whole plays, because of the 12 CBs on Green Bay's roster only two have had more than two years of experience. Redmond has had 3 years experience and T.Williams has had 12, so potential is where hope must lie, but there have been some signs of that. 

Breeland and Pleasant were (I assume) not good enough to be retained. There isn't much to base hope/worry on, but 4 or 5 guys might have the talent play a significant role (mostly determined by injuries), the contenders being: 
J.Alexander, K.King, T.Williams, J.Jackson, T.Brown, N.Jamerson, K.Hollman and another 5 tail-enders.

So, what really differentiates @Arthur Penske from @Gopher Trace is where you lie on the optimism/pessimism scale. I'm more on the Penske side because I like the potential of at least four of these guys............. and from past experience I know I'm more an optimist than a pessimist.

PS. It will be a lot easier for the CBs if decent pressure is schemed by Pettine (who did a pretty good job last year with far less than he has now).

 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by OneTwoSixFive

[vegas492]

6 hours ago, Arthur Penske said:

How many teams in the NFL have better CB depth? Health is obviously a question, but very few teams have what we've got at CB when healthy.

That's just it.  We aren't healthy there.  Even as a rookie Jaire missed time.

How many games you think we are going to line up with these four?  Alexander, King, Jackson, Williams?

I'll say 7.  Which I think would be a huge win right now.

GB is very smart for continuing to draft corners, even if they are developmental.  Can't have too many of them...ever.

[pacman5252]

I'm cautiously optimistic about this D. I think we have the talent to be a top 10 unit. With that said, I feel like we finish in the middle of the pack, which is a big improvement, but probably a let down considering the excitement after FA/the draft. There are just so many potential negative variables that a few probably happen

Potential issues (thinking objectively);

-The Smiths- odds are one lets down. Z has essentially had one good year and Preston has been solid/not special.

-Gary- huge wildcard, could bust

-Clark- I love but he probably isn't as productive of a rusher next year. He's still a NT which is a lower value role.

-Fackrell- 95% chance he isn't as productive

-King/Alexander both have injury histories going back to college. If both missed 5+ games and are in and out of the lineup I wouldn't be surprised

-Daniels- getting up there, was pretty mediocre last year

-Amos- might not be as good in GB as he was in Chi. Is just solid not special

-Savage- I love the college tape but he's still a rookie, might struggle.

-None of the other young DL improve

-Our missed games due to injuries are higher than normal (they will happen, just when)

So basically if all of these negative things happen, we'll be a bottom 5 D. If half happen (which is probably a likely scenario) we finish in the top 15 area. If only like 2 happen, we'll finish top 10.

 

[Arthur Penske]

17 hours ago, vegas492 said:

That's just it.  We aren't healthy there.  Even as a rookie Jaire missed time.

How many games you think we are going to line up with these four?  Alexander, King, Jackson, Williams?

I'll say 7.  Which I think would be a huge win right now.

GB is very smart for continuing to draft corners, even if they are developmental.  Can't have too many of them...ever.

I didn't disagree with any of this. my point is it' snot easy to have a ton of good corners and that there are teams that would like to have the options we do.

[Leader]

The defense looks great and I cant wait till TC/PS actually starts so we can actually see it.

[vegas492]

42 minutes ago, Arthur Penske said:

I didn't disagree with any of this. my point is it' snot easy to have a ton of good corners and that there are teams that would like to have the options we do.

Yah, I don't think there are many.

Take off those Green and Gold glasses for a second, and I'll take mine off as well.  (And that isn't a slam at all, please don't take it as such.)

We have an aged corner who can't really play man to man anymore and gets by on smarts.  I'd think that every team in the league either has one of those, or could have one of those if they wanted.

We have a talented yet very injury prone corner.  Again, thinking everyone has one of these in the secondary.  Could be that ours has more lockdown potential, though.

We have an uber talented corner that is smaller in size and who misses time.  Okay, that "uber talented" corner is something that may be not more than 10 teams have.

We have a higher drafted corner who is a work in progress.  Jackson.  Pretty typical on any roster.

We have an undrafted free agent in his second year that has flashed potential.  And also flashed why he was undrafted.  Yah, everyone could have one of these.

We have a later round rookie who has flashed potential.  Yah, everyone has one of those.

I don't think our situation is very different from most positions.  The difference, to me, is this....

We've been so dogsh!! poor at corner recently that this collection seems like an enormous upgrade....and there is much youth there, so there is hope for improvement.

I feel like a lot of teams have that established steady veteran at corner as their #1.  We've got good kid in his second year, not quite established yet.  And we have the lockdown traits in a very injury prone player.

To me there are more questions than answers right now.  But I too feel optimistic about the group as a whole.  I think there 's much more athletic talent there than there has been for the past few years.

[Mr Bad Example]

On 6/25/2019 at 11:47 AM, packfanfb said:

Martinez is AJ Hawk except that Hawk was drafted 5th overall and Martinez was drafted in the 4th round. So as fans, we viewed Hawk as a disappointment because he never lived up to being a top-10 pick, and Martinez is slightly overvalued because he was a day 3 pick that "hit" -- meaning he became a reliable starter in the NFL. If you reversed their draft slots, we'd be view Hawk like Martinez and vice versa. 

Nah, Hawk was rarely as aggressive as Martinez. IMO Hawk DID get over-hated, but he was a non-impact player. Martinez isn't elite-elite, but I'd rate him as a Pro Bowl talent (i.e. one of the better ILBs in the league, but not one of the best 2 or 3)