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How do you guys/gals feel about the draft?

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On 6/27/2019 at 6:41 PM, Magnus-Viktor said:

1.  Tiny LB with great range.  Not a fan, but hopefully he's better here than in college. 

Shazier at the combine was 6011, 225

Bush at the combine 51175, 234

Barely over an inch difference.  If we want to call Bush Tiny, Shazier was extremely underweight.

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James Farrior played at 225-230 while at Pittsburgh.  If you do not need to take on a Olineman like the Buck LB then being quick to cut angles is the way to go.

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On 6/29/2019 at 9:57 AM, Steeler Hitman said:

 

What player are you talking about specifically? Picking at #28 had them severely limited and probably would have cost this years #1.

The Steelers would have had to mortgage the farm to move up to get R. Smith in the top seven ahead of the Bears.

I know they loved Edmunds taken #16 by the Bills. I guess since they couldn't get him they took his brother whom I had a third round grade on instead.  Not enough assets to get up to that position without affecting this years picks.

The Cowboys taking Vander Esch at #19 hurt us.  I think that is who probably would have been their pick since they were competing with the Titans to jump up to get one.  Picking at #28 hurt their chances to move up and give a team worth while value.

 

Many on this site loved Rashaan Evans.  Unfortunately, so did the Titans picking ahead of us and being able to offer better trade bait. It was rumored that the Steelers had a deal in place with someone and the Titans jumped a pick or two ahead of their trade partner or made them a better offer.

The only player from this draft class that I think would have been taken ahead of both Devin's is Roquaan Smith. Devin White is probably #2 and Tremaine Edmunds probably goes ahead of Bush based on size. Evans was falling some due to concerns about speed if I recall and Vander Esch went from a second or third round prospect to a top 20.

I say all of this to say that I think the front office actually did a great job considering that they didn't get nearly what they wanted in an AB trade and he scared the be-Jesus out of any potential suitors and caused the Bills to back out on giving up a top ten pick. I think that Bush fits their system better than Vander Esch or Evans would have. Although Vander Esch proved to be pretty darn good at dropping in coverage.

 

I was referring to Vander Esch.  I really liked him and Hubbard in last year's draft.  I thought Hubbard = TJ Watt 2.0, and Vander Esch is everything I look for in an ILB.  I'd take him over that runt from Michigan any day.  Plus it wouldn't have tanked last season by having scrubs at ILB all year.  Ignoring ILB last year was a disgrace.

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10 hours ago, warfelg said:

Shazier at the combine was 6011, 225

Bush at the combine 51175, 234

Barely over an inch difference.  If we want to call Bush Tiny, Shazier was extremely underweight.

Shazier was a lot more explosive/dynamic and a lot better.  I hope Bush is better than what I saw.  Shazier in college was a heck of a lot more impressive to me than Bush.  Plus, as I said, they wasted a whole season by ignoring ILB last year.  We have a closing window.  They wasted a good chunk of it due to that. But yeah, lets take a 4th round S in 1 and a 3rd round WR in 2 instead lol.  Could've easily packaged those up for Vander Esch and been done with it.  Now we're short picks next year as well.  

 

Shazier could add weight.  You aren't going to make up that inch plus.  Length and speed are more important than weight.

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2 minutes ago, Magnus-Viktor said:

Shazier was a lot more explosive/dynamic and a lot better.  I hope Bush is better than what I saw.  Shazier in college was a heck of a lot more impressive to me than Bush.  Plus, as I said, they wasted a whole season by ignoring ILB last year.  We have a closing window.  They wasted a good chunk of it due to that. But yeah, lets take a 4th round S in 1 and a 3rd round WR in 2 instead lol.  Could've easily packaged those up for Vander Esch and been done with it.  Now we're short picks next year as well.  

 

Shazier could add weight.  You aren't going to make up that inch plus.  Length and speed are more important than weight.

Going down the list more:

Shazier arms: 32 3/8. Bush arms: 32 1/8

Shazier hands: 10".  Bush Hans 9 5/8"

Shazier Vert: 42". Bush Vert 40.5"

Shazier broad: 130" Bush broad 124"

Shazier 3 cone 6.91. Bush 3 con 6.93

There really is not much of a difference between them.

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I have a question. What significance does the broad jump have? For any position? Is it a leg strength thing?

I ask because I don't see the connection between a broad jump and football. They never actually "broad jump" in football. I mean the, other than the Olympic sport of track and field, does any sport? So obviously it has a significance but it's the one thing I've never understood.

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10 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

I have a question. What significance does the broad jump have? For any position? Is it a leg strength thing?

I ask because I don't see the connection between a broad jump and football. They never actually "broad jump" in football. I mean the, other than the Olympic sport of track and field, does any sport? So obviously it has a significance but it's the one thing I've never understood.

Explosiveness, strength, flexibility, balance.

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11 hours ago, wwhickok said:

I have a question. What significance does the broad jump have? For any position? Is it a leg strength thing?

I ask because I don't see the connection between a broad jump and football. They never actually "broad jump" in football. I mean the, other than the Olympic sport of track and field, does any sport? So obviously it has a significance but it's the one thing I've never understood.

Quick twitch muscles.  Explosiveness.  Same with VJ.  They have more relevance than bench press and 40 yard dash.

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6 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Quick twitch muscles.  Explosiveness.  Same with VJ.  They have more relevance than bench press and 40 yard dash.

Depends how you use the 40.  If you are looking at more than the 10 yd split for DL/OL you use it wrong.  RB/WR the 10 yards split can tell you about how well they can get up to speed, and 20-40 split can tell you about pull away speed.  For CB's/S's the 20-40 split can tell you about closing speed.

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14 hours ago, Magnus-Viktor said:

I was referring to Vander Esch.  I really liked him and Hubbard in last year's draft.  I thought Hubbard = TJ Watt 2.0, and Vander Esch is everything I look for in an ILB.  I'd take him over that runt from Michigan any day.  Plus it wouldn't have tanked last season by having scrubs at ILB all year.  Ignoring ILB last year was a disgrace.

Vander Esch shot up the draft charts last year. He proved that he deserved the attention he garnered. He reminds me of a bigger version of Jack Lambert, but I am certainly not ready to put him in Lambert's class yet.  Sam Hubbard was a bit of an anomaly for me. Was he going to be another great pass rusher or another LaMaar Woodley type for us?

No doubt, I had a higher draft grade on Hubbard than I did Edmunds. It was said the Steelers were trying to move up, but after Vander Esch was drafted by Dallas and the Titans traded ahead of us, it was a done deal for us at ILB.  I still think that they should have tried to trade down at that point.

14 hours ago, Magnus-Viktor said:

Shazier was a lot more explosive/dynamic and a lot better. 

I disagree with you there my friend. I think that Bush is a better all-around ILB than Shazier was at the same point in  their careers. Shazier had some issues diagnosing the run and shedding blockers even as a pro. I think Bush is much more instinctive at ILB than Shazier was.

I hope Bush is better than what I saw.  Shazier in college was a heck of a lot more impressive to me than Bush.  Plus, as I said, they wasted a whole season by ignoring ILB last year. 

No argument there.

 

We have a closing window.  They wasted a good chunk of it due to that. But yeah, lets take a 4th round S in 1 and a 3rd round WR in 2 instead lol.  Could've easily packaged those up for Vander Esch and been done with it.  Now we're short picks next year as well.  

My only argument with that is they would have been short picks either way. That is what it takes to move up in the draft.  I was not a fan of the Shazier pick when he was drafted, but Ryan quickly became one of my favorites.  I still saw some flaws in his game, but his character, leadership, integrity and fire made up for the things that he lacked.  Hindsight is always perfect vision.  I liked Darius Leonard last year as well. In my humble opinion, they could have moved down and drafted him.  Although I had a third round grade on him and the Colts took him fairly high in round two. 

14 hours ago, Magnus-Viktor said:

 

Shazier could add weight.  You aren't going to make up that inch plus.  Length and speed are more important than weight.

Sometimes we get too caught up in size, length and measureables. Can the guy play?  That is the bottom line to me.  Bush looks like he can play and will thrive in this defense.  In the end, that is all that matters.  Bush should be able to provide consistent play, leadership and can grow to be something special a la Shazier.  I just believe that Bush despite his lack of height actually has a higher ceiling than Shazier. Time will tell.

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15 hours ago, warfelg said:

There really is not much of a difference between them.

Except Shaz made a lot of plays in college; Bush not so much.

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2 minutes ago, cjfollett said:

Except Shaz made a lot of plays in college; Bush not so much.

1, not really.  Shazier made more splash plays sure, but Bush mad some difficult chase down open field tackles look easy.

2, take a look at how much NFL talent was on that OSU defense, Bush did not.  Shazier was able to stay incredibly clean and Bush played through tons of muddied situations

3, tied to point 2, they had very different defensive schemes.  OSU has the interior of their line hold blocks while Mich has interior guys attack.

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3 hours ago, warfelg said:

1, not really.  Shazier made more splash plays sure, but Bush mad some difficult chase down open field tackles look easy.

2, take a look at how much NFL talent was on that OSU defense, Bush did not.  Shazier was able to stay incredibly clean and Bush played through tons of muddied situations

3, tied to point 2, they had very different defensive schemes.  OSU has the interior of their line hold blocks while Mich has interior guys attack.

1, I will just say that by looking at Bush's tape versus good teams like ND, Penn St., OSU, etc., he makes very few individual plays, is frequently caught out of position, is easily blocked, and is generally a non-factor. 

2, 4 players on that D, including Bush, were drafted in 2019, and looks like it could be 3-4 more in 2020.

3, I understand the schemes were different. I just don't know if Bush will be a good NFL ILB. I hope he plays more hybrid SS. He does have the speed for it. I just do not see him squaring up to tackle a RB head on, or being able to fight through the garbage to get to a ball carrier.

My basic point is Shaz and Bush are more different than you indicated. 

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On 7/10/2019 at 7:50 AM, warfelg said:

Depends how you use the 40.  If you are looking at more than the 10 yd split for DL/OL you use it wrong.  RB/WR the 10 yards split can tell you about how well they can get up to speed, and 20-40 split can tell you about pull away speed.  For CB's/S's the 20-40 split can tell you about closing speed.

I am using the 40 like the media does.  10 yard splits is much more useful than the 40 time.  If they gave the 40 as 10 yard splits I would be happy.

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18 hours ago, cjfollett said:

1, I will just say that by looking at Bush's tape versus good teams like ND, Penn St., OSU, etc., he makes very few individual plays, is frequently caught out of position, is easily blocked, and is generally a non-factor. 

2, 4 players on that D, including Bush, were drafted in 2019, and looks like it could be 3-4 more in 2020.

3, I understand the schemes were different. I just don't know if Bush will be a good NFL ILB. I hope he plays more hybrid SS. He does have the speed for it. I just do not see him squaring up to tackle a RB head on, or being able to fight through the garbage to get to a ball carrier.

My basic point is Shaz and Bush are more different than you indicated. 

Everything for Bush and the Steelers is how Bush plays the run.  I have no doubt he can drop back and cover.  He was HORRIBLE vs the run.  Bad angles.  Wrong decisions.  Different than Shazier who also took bad angles and made bad decisions.  Shazier made splash plays.  It took him about 2.5 years as a pro to make more right decisions than wrong but he did not hesitate.  Bush seems to over think or hesitate to make sure he makes the correct read.  That is why he tends to make any tackles 5 yards past the LOS.

I have hope because of Darius Leonard.  Leonard was not a tackling machine in college ( much much better than Bush though).  I am not sure anyone though he would translate into the DROTY and a tackling machine.  I can only hope that the geniuses at Michigan used Bush incorrectly.

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