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How do you guys/gals feel about the draft?

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On 7/9/2019 at 7:00 PM, warfelg said:

Going down the list more:

Shazier arms: 32 3/8. Bush arms: 32 1/8

Shazier hands: 10".  Bush Hans 9 5/8"

Shazier Vert: 42". Bush Vert 40.5"

Shazier broad: 130" Bush broad 124"

Shazier 3 cone 6.91. Bush 3 con 6.93

There really is not much of a difference between them.

 

Oh come on man.  That's laughable at best.  There's a big difference in 4.3 vs 4.4, but lets conveniently leave that off since it doesn't fit your agenda.  1.5" in vert and 6" in broad isn't exactly chump change either.  Standing reach is completely ignored in your analogy, but if he has 2 inches in standing reach to bat balls or w/e that's significant.  Bush is a solid athlete, but he's not the freak that Shazier was.  Shazier is literally better in every category, except weight.  

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On 7/10/2019 at 9:43 AM, Steeler Hitman said:

Vander Esch shot up the draft charts last year. He proved that he deserved the attention he garnered. He reminds me of a bigger version of Jack Lambert, but I am certainly not ready to put him in Lambert's class yet.  Sam Hubbard was a bit of an anomaly for me. Was he going to be another great pass rusher or another LaMaar Woodley type for us?

No doubt, I had a higher draft grade on Hubbard than I did Edmunds. It was said the Steelers were trying to move up, but after Vander Esch was drafted by Dallas and the Titans traded ahead of us, it was a done deal for us at ILB.  I still think that they should have tried to trade down at that point.

My only argument with that is they would have been short picks either way. That is what it takes to move up in the draft.  I was not a fan of the Shazier pick when he was drafted, but Ryan quickly became one of my favorites.  I still saw some flaws in his game, but his character, leadership, integrity and fire made up for the things that he lacked.  Hindsight is always perfect vision.  I liked Darius Leonard last year as well. In my humble opinion, they could have moved down and drafted him.  Although I had a third round grade on him and the Colts took him fairly high in round two. 

Sometimes we get too caught up in size, length and measureables. Can the guy play?  That is the bottom line to me.  Bush looks like he can play and will thrive in this defense.  In the end, that is all that matters.  Bush should be able to provide consistent play, leadership and can grow to be something special a la Shazier.  I just believe that Bush despite his lack of height actually has a higher ceiling than Shazier. Time will tell.

Vander Esch and Hubbard were far and away my top 2 players for the Steelers in that draft.  Looking back, it's obvious if possible they should've moved up to take Vander Esch, no matter what it cost (within reason of course).  Hubbard we won't really know about since he's playing DE instead of OLB, but I watched him a lot in college and I watched Watt a lot in college, and I think Hubbard = Watt 2.0 if he slimmed down 15 lbs to play LB again.  I had higher grades on both of them than Edmunds for damn sure.  I had them both as 1st rounders, and Edmunds was a 4th.  The one thing I wondered about on Hubbard was the snap count.  He seemed to think too much, and was maybe a little too assignment-oriented and making sure he didn't just go and have a guy blow right past him as we routinely saw Dupree do.  It was slim pickings at ILB both of the last 2 years where we were picking.  But you KNEW you tanked a season if you didn't improve ILB, so they should've traded up and not waited for someone to fall.  Go back to the Cowher style of drafting where you need Polamalu at 13, trade up from 30 to get him (or w/e the numbers were).  Don't just sit there and take 2nd rate scrubs as Tomlin and Colbert always have done.  Disgusting.

I loved Shazier when he was coming out too.  I did question his size some, but he was actually #1 on my wish list that year, of all those available at the pick.  I also wanted Odell Beckham Jr, Zach Martin, Taylor Lewan, and I have to admit I thought Justin Gilbert would be good too.  Zach Martin is the only other player in the draft who was available that I would've considered at that pick.  I just loved Shazier's range and explosiveness, and I tend to watch a lot of Ohio State so I saw lots of flashes.  (No, I'm not an Ohio State fan, so I have no anti-Michigan sentiment clouding my judgment here lol)

I don't believe that Bush's ceiling is higher than Shazier's of course.  But I HOPE it is!  Shazier had a damn high ceiling!

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On 7/11/2019 at 6:05 PM, Magnus-Viktor said:
Quote

Vander Esch and Hubbard were far and away my top 2 players for the Steelers in that draft.  Looking back, it's obvious if possible they should've moved up to take Vander Esch, no matter what it cost (within reason of course).

Hindsight is always perfect vision. It is better than 20/20, Lasik, and Superman's x-ray vision. :D The draft is and always will be an art. I get that you liked Vander Esch and he began to grow on me a lot as well, but that was much more of a gamble to move up and pick.  The Steelers were actually trying to move up to get an ILB.  You can't take that from them.  They have had some misfortune drafting low.  Several years, the Bengals, Ravens and others took players that where targeted as potential Steelers draft choices. In a perfect world, they would have loved jumping up to get the younger Edmonds brother at Buffalo's spot. I was leery of him because of his age, ability to adapt to the NFL game, strength (19-year old kid playing with grown arse men) and experience. I did like Hubbard as well, but I also didn't think he was a number 1.  However, to your point that would have made more sense from a value standpoint than Edmonds. Although, I think that he will begin to make us forget where he was drafted. He is a bigger and even quicker version of Troy. Will he ever have Troy's, timing, anticipation and knowledge of the defense? Will he also have a Ryan Clark type to play with as well?

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Hubbard we won't really know about since he's playing DE instead of OLB, but I watched him a lot in college and I watched Watt a lot in college, and I think Hubbard = Watt 2.0 if he slimmed down 15 lbs to play LB again.  I had higher grades on both of them than Edmunds for damn sure. 

No argument there. And a lot of other potential candidates as well as trying to move down.

I had them both as 1st rounders, and Edmunds was a 4th.  The one thing I wondered about on Hubbard was the snap count.  He seemed to think too much, and was maybe a little too assignment-oriented and making sure he didn't just go and have a guy blow right past him as we routinely saw Dupree do. 

Quote

It was slim pickings at ILB both of the last 2 years where we were picking.

That is my point, not much they could have done standing pat.  I give them credit for making the move and not giving  up the entire ranch.  The AB debacle with the Bills backing off because of AB not wanting to play there, kept  them from potentially getting Bush at Buffalo's spot and still drafting a top end edge or CB at 20. It is what it is. No woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Quote

But you KNEW you tanked a season if you didn't improve ILB, so they should've traded up and not waited for someone to fall. 

That is where I disagree with you. There is only so much that you can do. They had some free agent options and they didn't hit on any of those and after the draft, they were like a drunk sailor looking to score at a cheap bar at closing.

Drunk_People_Are_Funny.jpg

Go back to the Cowher style of drafting where you need Polamalu at 13, trade up from 30 to get him (or w/e the numbers were).  Don't just sit there and take 2nd rate scrubs as Tomlin and Colbert always have done.  Disgusting.

Mr. Donanhoe and Coach Cowher were such draft geniuses that Coch Cowher only has one SB ring and two appearances in his fifteen year career. (I am by no means bashing either, but they made draft SNAFU's as well. Most notably by taking Troy Edwards over Javon Da Feak Kearse. Coach Cowher was also highly criticized for the amount of time it took before he got a true franchise QB in Big Ben.

I loved Shazier when he was coming out too. 

I lost my freaking mind. I thought they were wrapped up in his athleticism and COMBINE grades. I certainly love Ryan Shazier, but I hated him as our #1 pick.

I did question his size some, but he was actually #1 on my wish list that year, of all those available at the pick.  I also wanted Odell Beckham Jr, Zach Martin, Taylor Lewan, and I have to admit I thought Justin Gilbert would be good too.  Zach Martin is the only other player in the draft who was available that I would've considered at that pick. 

I loved all of those players as well.  Justin Gilbert is the best example of what I am talking about. Dude should have been a stud like Denzel Ward was, whom many draft experts rolled their eyes at because the Browns selected him over Chubb. For the record, I would have selected Zach over Ryan.

I just loved Shazier's range and explosiveness, and I tend to watch a lot of Ohio State so I saw lots of flashes.  (No, I'm not an Ohio State fan, so I have no anti-Michigan sentiment clouding my judgment here lol)

Of course not!:D

A-morale-victory-Buckeyes-blitz-Michigan

 

I don't believe that Bush's ceiling is higher than Shazier's of course.  But I HOPE it is!  Shazier had a damn high ceiling!

Me too. I think that Bush will be game ready and adaptable to the NFL from day one.  Lambert wasn't the best MLB prospect in his class either, but he turned out pretty good for a guy who was said to be too tall, too skinny and not strong enough for the NFL. The late Sam Mills proved a lot of people wrong too.  Bush has more weight, explosiveness, and range than both of those greats "on paper." I believe that this kid has the heart, head and stomach to become the face of the defense like the days of old. 

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Mr. Donanhoe and Coach Cowher were such draft geniuses that Coch Cowher only has one SB ring and two appearances in his fifteen year career. (I am by no means bashing either, but they made draft SNAFU's as well. Most notably by taking Troy Edwards over Javon Da Feak Kearse. Coach Cowher was also highly criticized for the amount of time it took before he got a true franchise QB in Big Ben.

 

i havent read the whole thread bu this jumped out at me.

i seem to recall numerous people blame cowher for ignoring getting a franchise qb during his time. if you go back and look at the drafts, im not sure who were all the franchise qb he passed on

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22 hours ago, muncher said:

Mr. Donanhoe and Coach Cowher were such draft geniuses that Coch Cowher only has one SB ring and two appearances in his fifteen year career. (I am by no means bashing either, but they made draft SNAFU's as well. Most notably by taking Troy Edwards over Javon Da Feak Kearse. Coach Cowher was also highly criticized for the amount of time it took before he got a true franchise QB in Big Ben.

 

i havent read the whole thread bu this jumped out at me.

i seem to recall numerous people blame cowher for ignoring getting a franchise qb during his time. if you go back and look at the drafts, im not sure who were all the franchise qb he passed on

I took your advice and did some research on the Steelers draft history during the Cowher Era. I was shocked at the results. Not as bad as it may appear in many years, but also missed a shot at some good ones before Big Ben.

1992 - - Leon Searcy OT (Possible QB of note to draft: "Touchdown Tommy Maddox taken later by Denver) Maddox was only a sophomore if I recall and many thought he should have stayed in school another year to mature. - - pass

1993 - - Deon "Figures CB - - No top QB of note that could have been selected. - - pass

1994 - - Charles Johnson WR - - QB pickings are slim. Took a guy I liked late in Jim Miller. - - pass

1995 - - Mark Bruener TE - - No shot at Steve McNair or Kerry Collins. Selected Kordell Stewert in round two. - -He tried. I thought Stewart was the real deal and a draft steal.  Athletic with a cannon arm for deep balls. Next Brett Farvre I thought. Still one of my favorite Steelers.- - pass

1996 - - Jamain Stephens OT - - Absolute dud for the Steelers. No QB taken before Tony Banks in the second round. They had Kordell. - - pass

1997 - - Chad Scott CB - - Could have taken Jim Drunkeniller instead. Ouch! - - pass

1998 - - Alan Faneca OG - - Hard to argue with a future HOF candidate/selection. Only other QB option would have been Charlie Batch.

1999 - - Troy Edwards WR - - as mentioned they passed on Javon Kearse. Nuff said. I think they should have tried to move up and take Duante Culpepper who the Vikings selected two picks ahead. - - Missed opportunity and probably best shot at a franchise QB

2000 - - Plaxico Burress WR - - Steelers were trying to pull a trade with the Jets who had three first rounders. The Steelers were said to be in turmoil because Bill Cowher wanted a defensive player like John Abraham and Mr. Donahoe wanted Chad Pennington.  The Jets wanted Plaxico, so the deal was nixed  if I recall. Semi-pass.  Should have done that the previous year.

2001 - - Casey Hampton NG - - One  of my favorite big-ums. However, I was in love with Drew Brees. As wrong as I was about Kordell, the shrimp had a pretty damn good career and is the only QB on this list that would rival being selected over Ben some years later. Could have had Brees and took Shaun Rogers to play NG round two. FAIL.

2002 - - Kendall Simmons OG - - Many Steelers fans pissed the Steelers didn't try to move up to get Ed Reed.  Patrick Ramsey only QB taken in round one. pass

2003 - - Troy Polomalu SS - - Future HOF'er and they traded up for him.  Pass

2004 - - Big Ben Roethligsberger - - Finally!

There were a few misses, but for the most part QB pickings were slim in many years or they were drafting too low to get anyone worth while.  The Drew Brees one bothered me a little, but they got Ben and it was said that Phillip Rivers was actually Coach Cowher's first choice. They did alright with Ben though, finally....

 

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9 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I took your advice and did some research on the Steelers draft history during the Cowher Era. I was shocked at the results. Not as bad as it may appear in many years, but also missed a shot at some good ones before Big Ben.

1992 - - Leon Searcy OT (Possible QB of note to draft: "Touchdown Tommy Maddox taken later by Denver) Maddox was only a sophomore if I recall and many thought he should have stayed in school another year to mature. - - pass

1993 - - Deon "Figures CB - - No top QB of note that could have been selected. - - pass

1994 - - Charles Johnson WR - - QB pickings are slim. Took a guy I liked late in Jim Miller. - - pass

1995 - - Mark Bruener TE - - No shot at Steve McNair or Kerry Collins. Selected Kordell Stewert in round two. - -He tried. I thought Stewart was the real deal and a draft steal.  Athletic with a cannon arm for deep balls. Next Brett Farvre I thought. Still one of my favorite Steelers.- - pass

1996 - - Jamain Stephens OT - - Absolute dud for the Steelers. No QB taken before Tony Banks in the second round. They had Kordell. - - pass

1997 - - Chad Scott CB - - Could have taken Jim Drunkeniller instead. Ouch! - - pass

1998 - - Alan Faneca OG - - Hard to argue with a future HOF candidate/selection. Only other QB option would have been Charlie Batch.

1999 - - Troy Edwards WR - - as mentioned they passed on Javon Kearse. Nuff said. I think they should have tried to move up and take Duante Culpepper who the Vikings selected two picks ahead. - - Missed opportunity and probably best shot at a franchise QB

2000 - - Plaxico Burress WR - - Steelers were trying to pull a trade with the Jets who had three first rounders. The Steelers were said to be in turmoil because Bill Cowher wanted a defensive player like John Abraham and Mr. Donahoe wanted Chad Pennington.  The Jets wanted Plaxico, so the deal was nixed  if I recall. Semi-pass.  Should have done that the previous year.

2001 - - Casey Hampton NG - - One  of my favorite big-ums. However, I was in love with Drew Brees. As wrong as I was about Kordell, the shrimp had a pretty damn good career and is the only QB on this list that would rival being selected over Ben some years later. Could have had Brees and took Shaun Rogers to play NG round two. FAIL.

2002 - - Kendall Simmons OG - - Many Steelers fans pissed the Steelers didn't try to move up to get Ed Reed.  Patrick Ramsey only QB taken in round one. pass

2003 - - Troy Polomalu SS - - Future HOF'er and they traded up for him.  Pass

2004 - - Big Ben Roethligsberger - - Finally!

There were a few misses, but for the most part QB pickings were slim in many years or they were drafting too low to get anyone worth while.  The Drew Brees one bothered me a little, but they got Ben and it was said that Phillip Rivers was actually Coach Cowher's first choice. They did alright with Ben though, finally....

 

I respect your opinion Hitman, but calling Hampton a fail is absurd.    Sure, in hindsight, Brees was a better pick, but Hampton helped anchor alot of top defenses with Aaron Smith.  Shaun Rogers was a fat, lazy sloth who never would've had the same impact on our defense that Hampton did.

Dont get me wrong...I would've taken Brees over Hampton knowing what we know NOW, but Hampton was still a great pick both then and now.

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7 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I respect your opinion Hitman, but calling Hampton a fail is absurd.    Sure, in hindsight, Brees was a better pick, but Hampton helped anchor alot of top defenses with Aaron Smith.  Shaun Rogers was a fat, lazy sloth who never would've had the same impact on our defense that Hampton did.

Don't get me wrong...I would've taken Brees over Hampton knowing what we know NOW, but Hampton was still a great pick both then and now.

This was by no means meant that I was stating that Hampton was a bad pick.  The fail means that the Steelers missed an opportunity to draft a "Franchise QB." I loved "Big Snack" and what he did anchoring the center of our defense.  However, during that time I posted on different forums/sites my desire for the Steelers to get the leader and laser accurate Brees. In fact liked Brees better than Mike Vick because of his passing and leadership qualities I saw displayed at Purdue.

As far as Shaun Rogers, he started out well, but fell by the wayside. Big Snack had some of those same issues, but both Head Coachs Cowher and Tomlin challenged Casey.  I think that the Steelers could have either motivated Rogers as they did Hampton or found a good NT through the draft or later in free agency like Ted Washington. 

My only point is that often-times Coach Cowher put more of a premium on defensive players and offensive lineman than he did in attempting to securing a franchise QB. I was surprised that there was to his credit also a dearth of quality QB's for several years. Sorry that I wasn't clear. Definitely not calling Big Snack a failed pick. Just a failed opportunity by Coach Cowher to land a franchise QB.

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23 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I took your advice and did some research on the Steelers draft history during the Cowher Era. I was shocked at the results. Not as bad as it may appear in many years, but also missed a shot at some good ones before Big Ben.

1992 - - Leon Searcy OT (Possible QB of note to draft: "Touchdown Tommy Maddox taken later by Denver) Maddox was only a sophomore if I recall and many thought he should have stayed in school another year to mature. - - pass

1993 - - Deon "Figures CB - - No top QB of note that could have been selected. - - pass

1994 - - Charles Johnson WR - - QB pickings are slim. Took a guy I liked late in Jim Miller. - - pass

1995 - - Mark Bruener TE - - No shot at Steve McNair or Kerry Collins. Selected Kordell Stewert in round two. - -He tried. I thought Stewart was the real deal and a draft steal.  Athletic with a cannon arm for deep balls. Next Brett Farvre I thought. Still one of my favorite Steelers.- - pass

1996 - - Jamain Stephens OT - - Absolute dud for the Steelers. No QB taken before Tony Banks in the second round. They had Kordell. - - pass

1997 - - Chad Scott CB - - Could have taken Jim Drunkeniller instead. Ouch! - - pass

1998 - - Alan Faneca OG - - Hard to argue with a future HOF candidate/selection. Only other QB option would have been Charlie Batch.

1999 - - Troy Edwards WR - - as mentioned they passed on Javon Kearse. Nuff said. I think they should have tried to move up and take Duante Culpepper who the Vikings selected two picks ahead. - - Missed opportunity and probably best shot at a franchise QB

2000 - - Plaxico Burress WR - - Steelers were trying to pull a trade with the Jets who had three first rounders. The Steelers were said to be in turmoil because Bill Cowher wanted a defensive player like John Abraham and Mr. Donahoe wanted Chad Pennington.  The Jets wanted Plaxico, so the deal was nixed  if I recall. Semi-pass.  Should have done that the previous year.

2001 - - Casey Hampton NG - - One  of my favorite big-ums. However, I was in love with Drew Brees. As wrong as I was about Kordell, the shrimp had a pretty damn good career and is the only QB on this list that would rival being selected over Ben some years later. Could have had Brees and took Shaun Rogers to play NG round two. FAIL.

2002 - - Kendall Simmons OG - - Many Steelers fans pissed the Steelers didn't try to move up to get Ed Reed.  Patrick Ramsey only QB taken in round one. pass

2003 - - Troy Polomalu SS - - Future HOF'er and they traded up for him.  Pass

2004 - - Big Ben Roethligsberger - - Finally!

There were a few misses, but for the most part QB pickings were slim in many years or they were drafting too low to get anyone worth while.  The Drew Brees one bothered me a little, but they got Ben and it was said that Phillip Rivers was actually Coach Cowher's first choice. They did alright with Ben though, finally....

 

nice job with the list

ive heard so many fans say cowher didnt value the qb position but when looking back, only drew brees was available when they selected.

that can be put to rest now

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Keep in ming the year we drafted Ben, Cowher was pounding the table for Stacy Andrews, and it finally took Dan Rooney telling him to shut up and let Colbert make the call for us to pass on Andrews and take Ben.

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21 hours ago, muncher said:

nice job with the list

I've heard so many fans say Cowher didn't value the qb position but when looking back, only Drew Brees was available when they selected.

that can be put to rest now

It changed my initial perception of those thoughts.  I do think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle though.  He had a propensity for liking the big OL's and built his teams on defense. Some of it may have been timing of talent as well. The difference in his Super Bowl loss was the play of Troy Aikman versus Neil O'Donnell not the OL or defense.

I forgot to mention that 1999 was called the year of the QB.  It was supposed to be the best crop of QB talent since the 83 draft if I recall. After David Boston went to Arizona, I thought the Steelers should have moved up to try to get Culpepper who had flown up the draft charts. They could have tried to or move down to try to secure picks and get a better draft value of Troy . The drop-off in value between Tory Holt and David Boston to Troy Edwards and Kevin Johnson (who I actually liked better). Night and day.  Again, Javon Kearse was there too.  Maybe they felt burned by the Coach Noll Huey Richardson pick and Coach Cowher's high pick on Alonso Jackson with the "tweener types."

Culpepper was very similar to Ben is size and style.  He was also probably/arguably a better passer than Ben early in their careers. Ben has grown and is a lot better than many give him credit for, so it worked out in my eyes.

4 hours ago, warfelg said:

Keep in mind the year we drafted Ben, Cowher was pounding the table for Stacy Andrews, and it finally took Dan Rooney telling him to shut up and let Colbert make the call for us to pass on Andrews and take Ben.

In my humble opinion, Coach Cowher had always had ambitions to be the HC and GM.  I think that Mr. Rooney wanted to keep that "personnel guy" there to balance the power. Coach Cowher clashed with Mr. Donahoue and Kevin Colbert at times.  Although it was said that he had a better working relationship with Mr. Colbert.  I forgot about the Stacy Andrews thing.  Again, he loved those lineman.  He was also rumored to have had a man-crush on Shaun "Lights Out" Merriman and wanted to move up to try to get him as well. I personally liked WR's Roddy White and Matt Jones. Heath Miller was a more than solid pick at #30. Roddy White would have looked good in Black N Gold, but the athletically gifted Jones did not work out due to off the field issues and drugs.

 

 

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