Ward4HOF Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 On 7/9/2019 at 7:55 PM, Magnus-Viktor said: Shazier was a lot more explosive/dynamic and a lot better. I hope Bush is better than what I saw. Shazier in college was a heck of a lot more impressive to me than Bush. Plus, as I said, they wasted a whole season by ignoring ILB last year. We have a closing window. They wasted a good chunk of it due to that. But yeah, lets take a 4th round S in 1 and a 3rd round WR in 2 instead lol. Could've easily packaged those up for Vander Esch and been done with it. Now we're short picks next year as well. Shazier could add weight. You aren't going to make up that inch plus. Length and speed are more important than weight. My point was, you are just willy-nilly picking attributes, and assigning 'relative importance' to them, like it's some fact...it's not. Whether Bush is successfulor not will not be based upon being an inch and a half shorter than half a dozen ILBs, or about an inch shorter than another 4 or 5 guys. So, how do you explain Sam Mills, or how about Zach Thomas being arguably, the Dolphins best-ever LB?? Being an inch or two shorter is nowhere near as important as the collective of other attributes... And if Bush fails...it's certainly not going to be due to his height... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus-Viktor Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Ward4HOF said: My point was, you are just willy-nilly picking attributes, and assigning 'relative importance' to them, like it's some fact...it's not. Whether Bush is successfulor not will not be based upon being an inch and a half shorter than half a dozen ILBs, or about an inch shorter than another 4 or 5 guys. So, how do you explain Sam Mills, or how about Zach Thomas being arguably, the Dolphins best-ever LB?? Being an inch or two shorter is nowhere near as important as the collective of other attributes... And if Bush fails...it's certainly not going to be due to his height... I never presented anything as fact, and don't try to insinuate I did. I've been very clear that it was based on how I personally view and value these things. Those guys you mentioned played in a more run-heavy era. Length matters more in pass coverage. They also played when others were much shorter and smaller, slower and lighter as well. Rod Woodson at 6' 205 was a really big CB in his day. Now he's average size, with many being considerably bigger than him. Those guys you mentioned were also exceptions to the rule, not the norm. If Bush fails, his lack of length sure as hell didn't help his chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ward4HOF Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 12 hours ago, Ward4HOF said: My point was, you are just willy-nilly picking attributes, and assigning 'relative importance' to them, like it's some fact And I never said you did present anything as fact...so we are in agreement...I said...the above...LIKE...as in, similar to...not 'is' fact... "You aren't going to make up that inch plus. Length and speed are more important than weight." But when someone states "X and Y are more important than Z," then you are attempting to make a statement, based upon...nothing...and present it LIKE it is some common-known...opinion...but that is just the point...it isn't Were people concerned about his height?? Sure. But more 'people' (to include analysts, fans, etc.) felt Bush was worthy of a top-half of the 1st Rd draft selection, than not, and though some may have mentioned his height as a detractor, he, as a 'complete package', was either at the top...or 2nd-ranked, at his position...ahead of AAALLLLL those other ILB/MLB prospects, who were taller...why do you thinks that is?? Because of this... https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/devin-bush ...he ranks near 'average; in arm length/wingspan, yet ranks way higher in speed components... ...and ultimately, 'instinct' and 'Football IQ' are likely going to make-or-break him as an ILB...which are more important than length/height, especially combined with his speed. I am more concerned about those attributes, which, IMO, were the bigger detractor than his height, to most analysts... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rivers Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 13 hours ago, Ward4HOF said: ...he ranks near 'average; in arm length/wingspan, yet ranks way higher in speed components... ...and ultimately, 'instinct' and 'Football IQ' are likely going to make-or-break him as an ILB...which are more important than length/height, especially combined with his speed. I am more concerned about those attributes, which, IMO, were the bigger detractor than his height, to most analysts... what matters is that the team has a scheme that suits his abilities.If he needs to be kept clean, then they have to make sure the NT can do that. If he is limited in coverage, then the secondary/scheme needs to cover that. Football IQ only goes so far if speed is lacking, but they say Bush has both so he should be a quality starter. I am not expecting Shazier 2.0 though, because Shazier was unreal at times and stood out even to non steeler fans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeler Hitman Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 On 8/12/2019 at 8:58 PM, 3rivers said: what matters is that the team has a scheme that suits his abilities. If he needs to be kept clean, then they have to make sure the NT can do that. If he is limited in coverage, then the secondary/scheme needs to cover that. Football IQ only goes so far if speed is lacking, but they say Bush has both so he should be a quality starter. I am not expecting Shazier 2.0 though, because Shazier was unreal at times and stood out even to non steeler fans. Agree 100% that scheme needs to suit ability. Great point about football IQ. Dirty Red has an extremely high football IQ and instincts, but is often slow to move, read and dissect not because he doesn't have the ability, but because the game is much faster. Shazier was a freak of nature who could run like the wind. However, I was never impressed with how Shazier played the run. Love him and was one of my favorite players, but I was often frustrated by the fact that he didn't diagnose plays well, got caught inside of blockers (OL), was not always flowing downhill and his speed made up for a lot of his inability to diagnose because he could flow so quickly to recover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSteelers56 Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Steeler Hitman said: Agree 100% that scheme needs to suit ability. Great point about football IQ. Dirty Red has an extremely high football IQ and instincts, but is often slow to move, read and dissect not because he doesn't have the ability, but because the game is much faster. Shazier was a freak of nature who could run like the wind. However, I was never impressed with how Shazier played the run. Love him and was one of my favorite players, but I was often frustrated by the fact that he didn't diagnose plays well, got caught inside of blockers (OL), was not always flowing downhill and his speed made up for a lot of his inability to diagnose because he could flow so quickly to recover. I have been thinking on this awhile. I think that Devin Bush has the chance to be better than Shazier was for us. He is not quite the athlete and he doesn't have the length of Shaz, but he makes up for it. I think Bush is probably a better overall football player. He grew up around the game. He seems to have really great read/react skills. He seems to have the potential to be a better run defender. Shaz was just starting to become a decent coverage linebacker and I think Bush will get there much quicker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rivers Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 3 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said: I have been thinking on this awhile. I think that Devin Bush has the chance to be better than Shazier was for us. He is not quite the athlete and he doesn't have the length of Shaz, but he makes up for it. I think Bush is probably a better overall football player. He grew up around the game. He seems to have really great read/react skills. He seems to have the potential to be a better run defender. Shaz was just starting to become a decent coverage linebacker and I think Bush will get there much quicker. this would be what everyone would like, but I will have to see it to believe it. Shazier was a standout but if bush can be even comparable, that's good enough for me considering what they gave up to move up in the draft. Different players, yet similar combine stats , wait and see how this translates. He better be a good tackler, that is something that can't be tolerated for such a high draft pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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