Robbie Gould Update; The Stalemate Continues

[soulman]

9 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Top 30 of all time, not just top 30 in 2019. Significant difference there. Also, the number I posted was just FG percentage. Those guys for all-inclusive kicks are in the range you mention. 

I'm aware of that and I stand by my post. 

Give me a PK who can hit 90% of his kicks overall, PAT/FG, or keep looking.

You want the best at every position.

[soulman]

9 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

A guy capable of hitting 88-90% of his kicks consistently would be the best in the history of the game.  When he says top 30, he is referring to all time.  Kicking is a fickle thing.  I understand exactly what he is saying.  It has become a situation where anything less than perfection is unacceptable.  Perfection is always unobtainable.  

So does that mean we should be willing to settle for less?

The best in the game have hit 88% or more of all kicks, PAT and FG.

Robbie Gould has hit 87.7% of his career FG attempts and 97.6% of his XP attempts.  His overall career accuracy is 93%.

Now, please tell me again just how impossible it is to find a PK whose that accurate and do you all understand what I'm saying?

We had him and Fox wanted him gone.  Hooray.....long live John Fox, the f'n moron.

 

[AZBearsFan]

4 hours ago, soulman said:

I'm aware of that and I stand by my post. 

Give me a PK who can hit 90% of his kicks overall, PAT/FG, or keep looking.

You want the best at every position.

We want the best players??! That’s a novel concept! 🤷‍♂️😂

I agree with you. We are talking about the same level of player as the benchmark for acceptance. The guys I mentioned were the ones I mentioned because they meet that same criteria you’re talking about. 

Greg Zierlein: 177/212 FG, 222/228 XP for 399/440 overall (90.7%)

Matt Prater: 274/327 FG, 418/426 XP for 692/763 overall (90.7%)

Phil Dawson: 441/526 FG, 518/531 XP for 959/1057 overall (90.7%)

Dan Carpenter: 236/281 FG, 291/304 XP for 527/585 overall (90.1%)

Josh Brown: 319/380 FG, 438/441 XP for 757/821 overall (92.2%)

*Ryan Longwell: 361/434 FG, 604/613 XP for 965/1047 overall (92.2%)

*Matt Stover: 471/563 FG, 591/594 XP for 1062/1157 overall (91.8%)

*Careers ended before XP was moved back

That’s the level of player we NEED, with some clutch gene in there. Getting a guy better than that would be ideal, but is also a luxury. 

[soulman]

3 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

We want the best players??! That’s a novel concept! 🤷‍♂️😂

I agree with you. We are talking about the same level of player as the benchmark for acceptance. The guys I mentioned were the ones I mentioned because they meet that same criteria you’re talking about. 

Greg Zierlein: 177/212 FG, 222/228 XP for 399/440 overall (90.7%)

Matt Prater: 274/327 FG, 418/426 XP for 692/763 overall (90.7%)

Phil Dawson: 441/526 FG, 518/531 XP for 959/1057 overall (90.7%)

Dan Carpenter: 236/281 FG, 291/304 XP for 527/585 overall (90.1%)

Josh Brown: 319/380 FG, 438/441 XP for 757/821 overall (92.2%)

*Ryan Longwell: 361/434 FG, 604/613 XP for 965/1047 overall (92.2%)

*Matt Stover: 471/563 FG, 591/594 XP for 1062/1157 overall (91.8%)

*Careers ended before XP was moved back

That’s the level of player we NEED, with some clutch gene in there. Getting a guy better than that would be ideal, but is also a luxury. 

And that's all I was saying.

These guys are pros or wanna be pros.  Most have been kicking since HS and many have had college careers, attended kicking camps most of their lives, and some have had some preseason or pro league experience somewhere.

Expecting a competent NFL PK to make 90% of his total attempts shouldn't be an upper limit.  It should be a common expectation.

The greatest majority of kicks now come between 33-39 yards.  Most every NFL PK will attempt at least one XP and one FG per game from those distances.  That should be a PK's "sweet spot" and he should be 95%-99% from there. And he should be at least 88%-90% accurate between 40-49 yards.  50 yards and over 50%-60% is probably the best you'll get with any consistency.

Those are my targets and I hope they're Pace and Nagy's as well.

[dll2000]

8 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

We want the best players??! That’s a novel concept! 🤷‍♂️😂

I agree with you. We are talking about the same level of player as the benchmark for acceptance. The guys I mentioned were the ones I mentioned because they meet that same criteria you’re talking about. 

Greg Zierlein: 177/212 FG, 222/228 XP for 399/440 overall (90.7%)

Matt Prater: 274/327 FG, 418/426 XP for 692/763 overall (90.7%)

Phil Dawson: 441/526 FG, 518/531 XP for 959/1057 overall (90.7%)

Dan Carpenter: 236/281 FG, 291/304 XP for 527/585 overall (90.1%)

Josh Brown: 319/380 FG, 438/441 XP for 757/821 overall (92.2%)

*Ryan Longwell: 361/434 FG, 604/613 XP for 965/1047 overall (92.2%)

*Matt Stover: 471/563 FG, 591/594 XP for 1062/1157 overall (91.8%)

*Careers ended before XP was moved back

That’s the level of player we NEED, with some clutch gene in there. Getting a guy better than that would be ideal, but is also a luxury. 

I think you have to do overall percentages without XPs as the old ones were near automatic.  

literally anyone can kick a short xtra point. 9 year olds do it. 

[soulman]

5 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I think you have to do overall percentages without XPs as the old ones were near automatic.  

literally anyone can kick a short xtra point. 9 year olds do it. 

I have no idea where to find a data base that would allow us to extract only XP attempted and made from a LOS at the 25 yard line.

But my premise still holds.

If any PK is constantly practicing kicks from 33-39 yards he should have at least 95% accuracy from those distances.

[dll2000]

42 minutes ago, soulman said:

I have no idea where to find a data base that would allow us to extract only XP attempted and made from a LOS at the 25 yard line.

But my premise still holds.

If any PK is constantly practicing kicks from 33-39 yards he should have at least 95% accuracy from those distances.

I think this is one area where data and stats would really tell story of what should be expected.  I don't know what percentage of made kicks is or should be, but you should be at least within the mean or median of the other 31 kickers or not too far off it.  

I guess you could leave off everything less than 25 and more than 50 if you wanted to.  One should be near 100% and other should be much lower than rest.

 

 

 

[Heinz D.]

Bring back Butt-head!

 

[AZBearsFan]

7 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Bring back Butt-head!

 

265/364 (73.4%) career on FGs. But he had a cool nickname... 

[AZBearsFan]

15 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I think you have to do overall percentages without XPs as the old ones were near automatic.  

literally anyone can kick a short xtra point. 9 year olds do it. 

Ideally you could remove kickers from dome teams too. 

What I’m looking for is a guy who’s basically automatic from 45 and in and 75%+ from 46 and out. Essentially, if we get inside the 30 we are coming away with points. There’s a ton of value in that. Fry showed to be exactly the former in the AAF but his long was only 47 so his latter is a total unknown. Pineiro has the bigger leg and showed the same reliability in college and in his 1 game last year for OAK in the preseason (3/3 with FG of 21, 48 and 45). There’s at least reason for optimism with both. And if they both **** the bed then Matt Bryant is out there as a 2019 fix. 86.2% career FG (8/8 career at Soldier Field) and only 1 missed XP since they moved it back in 2015. Mike Nugent is still out there too. 82.9% FG since 2015 (86.8% inside 50 yards), 86.9% on all kicks in that span and 7/8 FG in 5 career playoff games. Definitely a lesser 2019 option than Bryant but at least an adequate short term fix. Both are backup options though - the team clearly wants Fry or Pineiro to win the job, and they should. 

[soulman]

6 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Ideally you could remove kickers from dome teams too. 

What I’m looking for is a guy who’s basically automatic from 45 and in and 75%+ from 46 and out. Essentially, if we get inside the 30 we are coming away with points. There’s a ton of value in that. Fry showed to be exactly the former in the AAF but his long was only 47 so his latter is a total unknown. Pineiro has the bigger leg and showed the same reliability in college and in his 1 game last year for OAK in the preseason (3/3 with FG of 21, 48 and 45). There’s at least reason for optimism with both. And if they both **** the bed then Matt Bryant is out there as a 2019 fix. 86.2% career FG (8/8 career at Soldier Field) and only 1 missed XP since they moved it back in 2015. Mike Nugent is still out there too. 82.9% FG since 2015 (86.8% inside 50 yards), 86.9% on all kicks in that span and 7/8 FG in 5 career playoff games. Definitely a lesser 2019 option than Bryant but at least an adequate short term fix. Both are backup options though - the team clearly wants Fry or Pineiro to win the job, and they should. 

It looks to me like this is the path we need to follow.

Ideally either Fry or Piniero are gonna be our longer term solution and we should know more as we watch them both in preseason.

But I also believe that if whoever does win out can't continue to show the consistency needed in the regular season we need to bring in an experienced vet for 2019 and keep searching.  No more second and third chances like Parkey was granted.

I may come off sounding a little brutal about this but we need to be.  There is no telling what Parkey's miss in that playoff game may have cost us.  We can't end up going down that same road again.  I care less about ultimate distance than I do about 100% accuracy on kicks any decent PK should be making and those kicks are in the 30-49 yard range.

[AZBearsFan]

On 7/19/2019 at 7:18 AM, soulman said:

It looks to me like this is the path we need to follow.

Ideally either Fry or Piniero are gonna be our longer term solution and we should know more as we watch them both in preseason.

But I also believe that if whoever does win out can't continue to show the consistency needed in the regular season we need to bring in an experienced vet for 2019 and keep searching.  No more second and third chances like Parkey was granted.

I may come off sounding a little brutal about this but we need to be.  There is no telling what Parkey's miss in that playoff game may have cost us.  We can't end up going down that same road again.  I care less about ultimate distance than I do about 100% accuracy on kicks any decent PK should be making and those kicks are in the 30-49 yard range.

The irony in this whole situation is that Gould was released 3 years ago in large part because he missed 2 kicks his last season here that directly led to us losing games. 

[soulman]

22 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

The irony in this whole situation is that Gould was released 3 years ago in large part because he missed 2 kicks his last season here that directly led to us losing games. 

Ironic?  Yeah, probably.  But since it took place during Fox's tenure I'd be happy to debate the "directly" part.

He doubled down on his prep and practice since and more than redeemed himself making both Fox and Pace look foolish in the process. SF knew what they had and they weren't gonna just let him leave without a fight to the finish to keep him.  And they won the fight.

I doubt Parkey will have that same shot at redemption nor will John Fox. I'll be shocked if he lasts more than one year as an analyst.

It may be hard for others here to understand but my pains with Fox are doubled by how badly he blew opportunities here in Denver.

[dll2000]

9 hours ago, soulman said:

Ironic?  Yeah, probably.  But since it took place during Fox's tenure I'd be happy to debate the "directly" part.

He doubled down on his prep and practice since and more than redeemed himself making both Fox and Pace look foolish in the process. SF knew what they had and they weren't gonna just let him leave without a fight to the finish to keep him.  And they won the fight.

I doubt Parkey will have that same shot at redemption nor will John Fox. I'll be shocked if he lasts more than one year as an analyst.

It may be hard for others here to understand but my pains with Fox are doubled by how badly he blew opportunities here in Denver.

I had a football coaching buddy from Denver.  Huge Broncos fan.  Everytime we got a Denver guy he predicted exactly how he would do with Bears and he turned out right each time. 

I got real sick of hearing about us picking up Denver cast offs aside from Trevathan. He said Trevathan would do good which he has.  

Glad it is going other direction now.  

[AZBearsFan]

That’s water under the bridge for me at this point. We made the wrong choice 3 years ago but it was 3 years ago. We only have like 6 rostered players who were even here then, and none of the coaching staff.

I just want to see us get it right for 2019 and hopefully beyond which in and of itself shows a conundrum since this team is built to win now which suggests needing a stalwart for 2019 but also built to win for the long run which suggests needing a long term stalwart. If we don’t find the latter then we’re going to be doing the same thing next offseason as this one, so it’s gotta happen eventually and because of that I think the younger guy(s) may get more run into the regular season than many think even if there are some bumps along the way.