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Training Camp Notes & Observations

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Counselor said:

Of course. But Winfree actually has NFL size at least.

Yeah, that's fair.   The thing is that's like McKenzie in his rookie year, Winfree is sushi-level raw, and will need time to develop - the lost time with his suspension at Maryland, transfer and subsequent ACL tear at COL, he's way behind even a normal college development curve.    Now, Scangarelli could be creative in finding ways to use his athleticism, I mean scheme-wise Scangarelli can only be a huge upgrade over Mike McCoy (duh) and on Bill Musgrave's scheme (who actually wasn't awful like McCoy was, but also didn't find ways to get his best guys the ball in space with anything but base set plays).  

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a PS stash, like Rypien.   Assuming Sanders doesn't start the year on PUP, our depth chart looks like:

Sanders

Sutton

Hamilton (slot)

Patrick 

Winfree/Cracraft/Langley to win 5th WR spot.

Now, I don't see much of a contribution from Cracraft or Langley as a receiver (Cracraft is the very definitionn of JAG and for Langley, converting positions is a tall order...really makes the 3rd rd pick look like a bust outcome given how long it will likely take to see him develop, most likely - ST guy is not a good result for any day 2 pick).    But both have edges over Winfree to stay on the roster, and to be active on Sundays, in that they contribute a lot on ST's.   If Winfree wants to win a roster spot, he'll have to show some ST chops, or outplay Patrick - while I'm not sold on him as anything more than a depth guy, Patrick has a huge edge in the experience/game-speed adjustment that Winfree is going to face.

Let's face it, if Sanders is only 90% of his old self, our WR corps is a huge weak spot.   So Winfree flashing would be a huge boost to our outlook.  But I have to admit, it's a tall order for Winfree to crack the regular lineup in 2019, at least until injuries appear (or Winfree really flashes hard in actual game situations in the preseason).

Edited by Broncofan

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1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

Yeah, that's fair.   The thing is that's like McKenzie in his rookie year, Winfree is sushi-level raw, and will need time to develop - the lost time with his suspension at Maryland, transfer and subsequent ACL tear at COL, he's way behind even a normal college development curve.    Now, Scangarelli could be creative in finding ways to use his athleticism, I mean scheme-wise Scangarelli can only be a huge upgrade over Mike McCoy (duh) and on Bill Musgrave's scheme (who actually wasn't awful like McCoy was, but also didn't find ways to get his best guys the ball in space with anything but base set plays).  

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a PS stash, like Rypien.   Assuming Sanders doesn't start the year on PUP, our depth chart looks like:

Sanders

Sutton

Hamilton (slot)

Patrick 

Winfree/Cracraft/Langley to win 5th WR spot.

Now, I don't see much of a contribution from Cracraft or Langley as a receiver (Cracraft is the very definitionn of JAG and for Langley, converting positions is a tall order...really makes the 3rd rd pick look like a bust outcome given how long it will likely take to see him develop, most likely - ST guy is not a good result for any day 2 pick).    But both have edges over Winfree to stay on the roster, and to be active on Sundays, in that they contribute a lot on ST's.   If Winfree wants to win a roster spot, he'll have to show some ST chops, or outplay Patrick - while I'm not sold on him as anything more than a depth guy, Patrick has a huge edge in the experience/game-speed adjustment that Winfree is going to face.

Let's face it, if Sanders is only 90% of his old self, our WR corps is a huge weak spot.   So Winfree flashing would be a huge boost to our outlook.  But I have to admit, it's a tall order for Winfree to crack the regular lineup in 2019, at least until injuries appear (or Winfree really flashes hard in actual game situations in the preseason).

I understand about Langley changing positions as a concern but I continue to hear he's making play after play utilizing his speed, something we can definitely use with our  big-armed QB's

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Cutler06 said:

I understand about Langley changing positions as a concern but I continue to hear he's making play after play utilizing his speed, something we can definitely use with our  big-armed QB's

 

 

Just a thought, but I don't think the FO is going to sell out for this year. I think guys like Langley could get quite a bit of time this year with sights set on 2020.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Yeah, that's fair.   The thing is that's like McKenzie in his rookie year, Winfree is sushi-level raw, and will need time to develop - the lost time with his suspension at Maryland, transfer and subsequent ACL tear at COL, he's way behind even a normal college development curve.    Now, Scangarelli could be creative in finding ways to use his athleticism, I mean scheme-wise Scangarelli can only be a huge upgrade over Mike McCoy (duh) and on Bill Musgrave's scheme (who actually wasn't awful like McCoy was, but also didn't find ways to get his best guys the ball in space with anything but base set plays).  

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a PS stash, like Rypien.   Assuming Sanders doesn't start the year on PUP, our depth chart looks like:

Sanders

Sutton

Hamilton (slot)

Patrick 

Winfree/Cracraft/Langley to win 5th WR spot.

Now, I don't see much of a contribution from Cracraft or Langley as a receiver (Cracraft is the very definitionn of JAG and for Langley, converting positions is a tall order...really makes the 3rd rd pick look like a bust outcome given how long it will likely take to see him develop, most likely - ST guy is not a good result for any day 2 pick).    But both have edges over Winfree to stay on the roster, and to be active on Sundays, in that they contribute a lot on ST's.   If Winfree wants to win a roster spot, he'll have to show some ST chops, or outplay Patrick - while I'm not sold on him as anything more than a depth guy, Patrick has a huge edge in the experience/game-speed adjustment that Winfree is going to face.

Let's face it, if Sanders is only 90% of his old self, our WR corps is a huge weak spot.   So Winfree flashing would be a huge boost to our outlook.  But I have to admit, it's a tall order for Winfree to crack the regular lineup in 2019, at least until injuries appear (or Winfree really flashes hard in actual game situations in the preseason).

I see Trinity Benson making this team somehow. Dont write him off as the  5th wr especially with punt return ability  

Edited by thebestever6

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2 hours ago, Cutler06 said:

I understand about Langley changing positions as a concern but I continue to hear he's making play after play utilizing his speed, something we can definitely use with our  big-armed QB's

 

 

And Langley is a solid special reamer. 

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Question for you guys - if the Broncos don't make the playoffs, is this season a failure? I'm trying to get a grasp on expectations

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16 minutes ago, champ11 said:

Question for you guys - if the Broncos don't make the playoffs, is this season a failure? I'm trying to get a grasp on expectations

Not to me.  A first time HC and With KC and LAC in the division it’s gonna be super tough.  If Denver is in the hunt at the very least till late in the season Or has a 9-7 season that would be a success I think

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10 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

I see Trinity Benson making this team somehow. Dont write him off as the  5th wr especially with punt return ability  

If he’s the best returner then sure.  Just the biggest take home message with our top 4  WR and DB’s being return guys the 5th WR or CB likely wins based on ST contributions.  

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12 minutes ago, broncofan48 said:

Not to me.  A first time HC and With KC and LAC in the division it’s gonna be super tough.  If Denver is in the hunt at the very least till late in the season Or has a 9-7 season that would be a success I think

I agree with that. The over / under is at 7 wins and I think going over that in our division would be a success 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, champ11 said:

Question for you guys - if the Broncos don't make the playoffs, is this season a failure? I'm trying to get a grasp on expectations

No not at all it's all about how the team is projecting up or down. Playoffs are always the goal every year. But circumstances and situations play a big role. Cleveland last year finished 7-8-1, but they finished strong and had their qbotf get much needed reps and he played well.

I think this team is going to play situational football, and will be well coached. If those things don't happen I'll be disappointed.  I'd also be disappointed if Lock doesn't play in 3 games and we're out of it.

Also if the season is trending downwards there's a fine line between still competing and getting some young guys reps. I just don't want a John Fox hating young players type deal.

Edited by thebestever6

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1 hour ago, champ11 said:

Question for you guys - if the Broncos don't make the playoffs, is this season a failure? I'm trying to get a grasp on expectations

It will be the manner of us missing out on the playoffs. If our young players make significant strides and we miss out due to under performing vets who are out of contract next year/can be cut, then I will be content for sure.

However, if we miss the playoffs and basically there is no 'light at the end of the tunnel' then yes, I will be very disappointed.

Pretty boring answer but there really is no excuse for young, talented players not developing and we do have some good young talent.

It's even more boring to say that our entire season could simply come down to the performance of our QB.

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I agree with you guys. I asked because in a Nicki J article - she said the season would be a failure with no playoffs. I didn't agree with that at all.

I think after seeing the complete incompetence of the VJ era - a team that competes and has smarter game-plans will make this season much more enjoyable. Seeing some young guys develop (a bunch of our young talented players were shockingly disappointing the last couple years) would be huge.

I think the verrrrrry high end of possibilities could get this team to about 10/11 wins, but more than likely we are 3rd in the division and around .500 due to the schedule. 

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47 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I agree with you guys. I asked because in a Nicki J article - she said the season would be a failure with no playoffs. I didn't agree with that at all.

I think after seeing the complete incompetence of the VJ era - a team that competes and has smarter game-plans will make this season much more enjoyable. Seeing some young guys develop (a bunch of our young talented players were shockingly disappointing the last couple years) would be huge.

I think the verrrrrry high end of possibilities could get this team to about 10/11 wins, but more than likely we are 3rd in the division and around .500 due to the schedule. 

I don't understand the Denver media. Nicki J get's hyped up as a great reporter, and don't get me wrong, I think she does a great job of reporting information (ie., Bowlen family Trust issues), but she's god awful when it comes to breaking down the team and game of football. I don't get why they continue to have her on both TV and Radio in that capacity. Great reporter, but completely unqualified to be an analyst.

On paper, they aren't a playoff team, they're the 3rd best team in their own division. They're going to struggle to score points. Flacco ISN'T an upgrade over Keenum, and over the course of the past 5 years is statistically one of the worst at his position in the game. I may be the only one, but I have concerns about the RB position as well. Lindsay had a great season last year, but I'm not 100% confident that he can replicate it.  

This team is a solid 7-9 to 9-7 team, barring injury. I think it's quite possible they finish with 4-6 wins if key players get hurt, but that's true of every meddling team. I would be shocked to see them win over games. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, champ11 said:

I agree with you guys. I asked because in a Nicki J article - she said the season would be a failure with no playoffs. I didn't agree with that at all.

I think after seeing the complete incompetence of the VJ era - a team that competes and has smarter game-plans will make this season much more enjoyable. Seeing some young guys develop (a bunch of our young talented players were shockingly disappointing the last couple years) would be huge.

I think the verrrrrry high end of possibilities could get this team to about 10/11 wins, but more than likely we are 3rd in the division and around .500 due to the schedule. 

 

2 hours ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

I don't understand the Denver media. Nicki J get's hyped up as a great reporter, and don't get me wrong, I think she does a great job of reporting information (ie., Bowlen family Trust issues), but she's god awful when it comes to breaking down the team and game of football. I don't get why they continue to have her on both TV and Radio in that capacity. Great reporter, but completely unqualified to be an analyst.

On paper, they aren't a playoff team, they're the 3rd best team in their own division. They're going to struggle to score points. Flacco ISN'T an upgrade over Keenum, and over the course of the past 5 years is statistically one of the worst at his position in the game. I may be the only one, but I have concerns about the RB position as well. Lindsay had a great season last year, but I'm not 100% confident that he can replicate it.  

This team is a solid 7-9 to 9-7 team, barring injury. I think it's quite possible they finish with 4-6 wins if key players get hurt, but that's true of every meddling team. I would be shocked to see them win over games. 

I think the media has to use these type of statements because an outright admission that we are still in a rebuild won’t sell tickets or the stadium naming rights.   Remember last Nov/Dec there were 5-digit #’s of empty seats.   The fan base has been spoiled by our prolonged org success.   

Now having said that - Elway has definitely been playing both sides of win-now & rebuild mode.  You don’t see him sign Kareem Jackson at 30+ and his injury risk with a contract that passes CHJ this year; or restructure Von’s deal last offseason to get stopgaps Veldheer / Clinton McDonald & Tramaine Brock (the 3 moves made right after the restructure) if there isn’t a win-now mentality.   No problem with the James / Callahan signings as those are in their peak years at premium positions.   But it’s the win-now moves that have proven to return little to no value given our lack of contention.  That’s the one area I’ve disagreed with as our resources should all be about 2020+ even last year and 2017 - but I get the fan base expectations and Elway's MO just don’t allow that.   

So for this season to be a success / failure beyond the unrealistic goal of playoffs, I’d echo the main themes and add another, and in order of concern I’d rank them: 

1.  QBOTF becomes clearer.  Until that happens we would need to be a complete team to compete.  And we are far from that. 

2.  The rookies / 2nd year guys need to keep progressing and be meaningful contributors / starters by the end of their 2nd season. (Average starter in 2nd year for round 1 picks).  We can’t keep having 2nd contract guys be the only core contributors.   It’s not realistic to think a rookie will be that guy but they need to show they are ready for that role by year 3 (and for Day 1-2 picks year 2 is a good target to find difference makers).   

3.  Our trenches need to be better heading into 2020.   Munchak offers a ton of hope given his track record but his impact usually happens in year 2.   With Wolfe’s contract expiring and the loss of our EDGE depth and continued ILB weaknesses being exploited in the pass game, the front 7 is a big Q unless our young guys develop.   I only rank this 3rd in concern not because trenches aren’t as important (it’s the key besides QB play to sustained success), but because we at least have signs for greater hope here with Munchak. 

We can miss the playoffs and even not get to 8-8 and we hit all 3 areas above I’d be thrilled.   We miss on 2 or more of the 3 areas above and it’s a lost season IMO.  Frankly if it’s a choice between getting to 8-8 or hitting the 3 areas I’d consider the latter far more important to the org.  

Edited by Broncofan

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Maybe the media has to generate something because I'm not hearing the hype you got last year about how good certain players like Keenum are doing. I wonder if Vic has that hype on lock down?

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