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Training Camp Notes & Observations


jsthomp2007

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@BroncoFan

I think it goes beyond the poor risky signings like an older injury prone Jackson, McDonald, Veldheer Elway traded up for Lynch and Lock. So instead of filling out our roster with mid round talented picks. Elway keeps swinging on these qb picks.

If you get the qb and it's a homerun great. But, if you keep trading up in drafts and what not. Trading mid round picks and limiting your draft pool goes poorly with developing talent on your roster. Forcing you to spend more to fill gaps in free agency which is a losing proposition. 

This draft that just passed I'm dissatisfied with us only making 6 selections.  It feels like this teams limiting the talent infusion to try to find a qb. 

This team needed a 10 pick to 11 pick type draft to try to create a deeper roster, because the top end of this roster is aging. Lock will need to be a homerun selection to counter this.

And if Scangarello does reestablish Flacco, and improve Lock it's only a matter of time before he gets poached this could even happen before this roster gets infused again.

 

Edited by thebestever6
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2 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

@BroncoFan

I think it goes beyond the poor risky signings like an older injury prone Jackson, McDonald, Veldheer Elway traded up for Lynch and Lock. So instead of filling out our roster with mid round talented picks. Elway keeps swinging on these qb picks.

If you get the qb and it's a homerun great. But, if you keep trading up in drafts and what not. Trading mid round picks and limiting your draft pool goes poorly with developing talent on your roster. Forcing you to spend more to fill gaps in free agency which is a losing proposition. 

This draft that just passed I'm dissatisfied with us only making 6 selections.  It feels like this teams limiting the talent infusion to try to find a qb. 

This team needed a 10 pick to 11 pick type draft to try to create a deeper roster, because the top end of this roster is aging. Lock will need to be a homerun selection to counter this.

And if Scangarello does reestablish Flacco, and improve Lock it's only a matter of time before he gets poached this could even happen before this roster gets infused again.

 

Well bad QB choices by Elway are never going to be argued by any sane DEN fan.  I’d just say that until we find our QBOTF it’s crazy to think win-now.   Which has definitely happened.   The flip side is that bad QBOTF calls delay our return to contention as much.   Why QBOTF is #1 on my priority list of the 3 areas to look for this year for future team building.  

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1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

Well bad QB choices by Elway are never going to be argued by any sane DEN fan.  I’d just say that until we find our QBOTF it’s crazy to think win-now.   Which has definitely happened.   The flip side is that bad QBOTF calls delay our return to contention as much.   Why QBOTF is #1 on my priority list of the 3 areas to look for this year for future team building.  

However, so that I can be an ***...Green Bay had Favre and Rogers and they've got two Super Bowls between them. Today, Rogers is probably the best QB in the league and they arent the favorites to win it all...yet, I wouldn't be shocked if they did because of Rogers.

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42 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said:

However, so that I can be an ***...Green Bay had Favre and Rogers and they've got two Super Bowls between them. Today, Rogers is probably the best QB in the league and they arent the favorites to win it all...yet, I wouldn't be shocked if they did because of Rogers.

And Manning and Luck have 1 combined SB in Indianapolis. I think Chris Harris being a diamond in the rough has been just as detrimental to Elway as Peyton Manning. Manning is one of the Goats and elways been obsessed with finding something comparable he overlooks other things. Chris Harris has been such a nice diamond in the rought it's hard to realize they're few and far between. 

UDFAs are important but to rely on them to build the depth on your football team especially special teams and competition, but it isn't smart though to depend on them to replenish the top of your roster year in and year out because you're looking for the next Peyton .

The misses are so bad heuerman and sanders are the only offensive players left from superbowl 50.

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8 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

@BroncoFan

I think it goes beyond the poor risky signings like an older injury prone Jackson, McDonald, Veldheer Elway traded up for Lynch and Lock. So instead of filling out our roster with mid round talented picks. Elway keeps swinging on these qb picks.

If you get the qb and it's a homerun great. But, if you keep trading up in drafts and what not. Trading mid round picks and limiting your draft pool goes poorly with developing talent on your roster. Forcing you to spend more to fill gaps in free agency which is a losing proposition. 

This draft that just passed I'm dissatisfied with us only making 6 selections.  It feels like this teams limiting the talent infusion to try to find a qb. 

This team needed a 10 pick to 11 pick type draft to try to create a deeper roster, because the top end of this roster is aging. Lock will need to be a homerun selection to counter this.

And if Scangarello does reestablish Flacco, and improve Lock it's only a matter of time before he gets poached this could even happen before this roster gets infused again.

 

Ah, I don’t know that I agree with this.  What this team needs more than anything is a QB and giving up a mid round pick or 2 for that potential is easily worth it.  So far it hasn’t worked out, but Denver is going nowhere without a QB, we’ve seen that since 2015.

I’m not saying picks aren’t valuable, but it’s where those picks are in the draft.  10-11 picks sounds nice, but it all depends where they land in the draft.  I actually think there is a stat out there where UDFAs hit at a higher rate than draft picks rounds 5-7.  There also isn’t a lot of difference between talent in round 6-7 and UDFAs, many of those UDFAs are being considered in those rounds and teams are just picking the player they don’t think they’d be able to sign should they become UDFAs. 

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12 hours ago, germ-x said:

Ah, I don’t know that I agree with this.  What this team needs more than anything is a QB and giving up a mid round pick or 2 for that potential is easily worth it.  So far it hasn’t worked out, but Denver is going nowhere without a QB, we’ve seen that since 2015.

I’m not saying picks aren’t valuable, but it’s where those picks are in the draft.  10-11 picks sounds nice, but it all depends where they land in the draft.  I actually think there is a stat out there where UDFAs hit at a higher rate than draft picks rounds 5-7.  There also isn’t a lot of difference between talent in round 6-7 and UDFAs, many of those UDFAs are being considered in those rounds and teams are just picking the player they don’t think they’d be able to sign should they become UDFAs. 

I'm not arguing that QB isn't the most important position in football because it is. What I'm arguing is that since superbowl 50 this team's replenishment of the offensive side of the ball has been bottom 5 in the NFL  sans qb.

I'm not sure whether it falls all on Elway, or the lack of continuity from the offensive identity coaching wise. Not sure whether it's the scouting aspects of the organization or what not. 

Leadership has been the biggest thing missing from this organizational structure besides qb since 2016. That I put all on Elway from the wrong hires for the coaching staff, to keeping vets way past their expiration date because you're not confident in the guys you've drafted behind them can take over. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, thebestever6 said:

I'm not arguing that QB isn't the most important position in football because it is. What I'm arguing is that since superbowl 50 this team's replenishment of the offensive side of the ball has been bottom 5 in the NFL  sans qb.

I'm not sure whether it falls all on Elway, or the lack of continuity from the offensive identity coaching wise. Not sure whether it's the scouting aspects of the organization or what not. 

Leadership has been the biggest thing missing from this organizational structure besides qb since 2016. That I put all on Elway from the wrong hires for the coaching staff, to keeping vets way past their expiration date because you're not confident in the guys you've drafted behind them can take over. 

 

 

 

I guess if you have Manning on one side of the ball and DeMarcus Ware on the other...it makes things pretty easy for everyone to step up there games. 

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On 7/25/2019 at 5:10 AM, champ11 said:

Question for you guys - if the Broncos don't make the playoffs, is this season a failure? I'm trying to get a grasp on expectations

I had to give this a bit of thought @champ11. Looking at the big picture I'd say major improvement in our W/L record is way down the list of things I want to see. That could change by mid season depending on how we do in other areas.

We need to turn a corner this year like we did in '95. I'll really start thinking about record next year.

Things I'd like to see.

1) a well coached, prepared, disciplined (fewer penalties, no more free lancing) professional team every week

2) Continued improvement throughout the season on both O and D. It'll take a bit with new systems on both O and D and lots of young players.

3) Solidifying the QB position. 

4) Becoming a team no one wants to play in December

5) Development of our young players.

I could go into greater detail, ILB's, OL, etc. but I think you get the drift.

 

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The funny thing is the person who kept insisting we were in win now mode was Elway.

You'd have thought he would be insisting we were building for the future, as theoretically it would have made his job perhaps be a little less pressured. Saying that maybe he feels in a really secure position, having a Super Bowl under his tenure already and with the uncertainty surrounding the ownership at the moment.

To be honest I don't expect playoffs this season at all. Just to be competitive in the division would be signs of progress. It's clear the Chiefs and Chargers are the two teams to beat in the West and maybe two of the best in the AFC. 

I have hope that the team is heading in the right direction and we will be become more competitive sooner rather than later. 

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8 hours ago, PFM18 said:

The funny thing is the person who kept insisting we were in win now mode was Elway.

You'd have thought he would be insisting we were building for the future, as theoretically it would have made his job perhaps be a little less pressured. 

When Elway first became Gm I think being a former player really helped him land Peyton Manning and as a former player you hate the term rebuild. His pitch was probably just as good as it is to the fans. So I can't fault him for having that attitude year in and year out. 

I personally think that he feels he got too sentimental with the players after superbowl 50. That's why he made those unnecessary comments about Chris Harris before the draft. I believe that he probably lost out on some significant assets to try to rebuild this team over the last couple of years. 

False expectations are never a good thing. But I can't fault a former all time great qb to not want to use the rebuild word. Rebuild to Elway is the same as the word complacency. 

Edited by thebestever6
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Personally I don't think "rebuild" applies in the FA era. When you turn over your roster constantly, about 1/3rd per year it's a complicated process. Who to extend, who to let go, who to trade, draft, pick up in FA.............  BB does it incredibly well, others, not so much.

 

Edited by AKRNA
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2 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

When Elway first became Gm I think being a former player really helped him land Peyton Manning and as a former player you hate the term rebuild. His pitch was probably just as good as it is to the fans. So I can't fault him for having that attitude year in and year out. 

I personally think that he feels he got too sentimental with the players after superbowl 50. That's why he made those unnecessary comments about Chris Harris before the draft. I believe that he probably lost out on some significant assets to try to rebuild this team over the last couple of years. 

False expectations are never a good thing. But I can't fault a former all time great qb to not want to use the rebuild word. Rebuild to Elway is the same as the word complacency. 

Fair point. I can accept that it would be hard for someone who bleeds the Denver Broncos like John Elway to even accept that those same Broncos would not be able to compete for a championship. 

I can also see why Superbowl 50 would make those thoughts even harder. They'd won a championship and were on top of the world. It's fair to see why John would still feel the Broncos are one of the top teams in the sport.

Reality is hard to accept sometimes, but the fact was that after Manning retired and other players moved on elsewhere the team struggled to compete at that level, as would be expected. 

QB was a huge problem. Elway and his front office deserve criticism for that (i.e.giving Keenum a big contract) but sometimes you just strike out (i.e. Paxton Lynch). 

I've given Elway his fair share of criticism for what he's done as a GM but I also believe he cares more about the Broncos than most so would certainly will him to succeed.  

As I said I do have belief that things are heading in the right direction and if we can compete against KC and LA we are headed in the right direction. 

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1 hour ago, PFM18 said:

QB was a huge problem. Elway and his front office deserve criticism for that (i.e.giving Keenum a big contract) but sometimes you just strike out (i.e. Paxton Lynch). 

I like how you said Qb was a huge problem because I do feel better about that position this year than any point since Manning was signed in 2012. (emphasized since 2012 because I was worried about PMs arm strength after that 2012 playoff game.) Glad I was wrong. 

With all that being said Joe Flacco in my mind is totally worth the 4th round pick used to aquire him to be the qb in the now regardless of statistics comparing him to Keenum. The guy was the CEO of an offense for 11 years. He wasn't some journeyman undrafted QB that overachieved one year. Whether people believe in Lock or not learning behind a guy that's been a Ceo of a football team for a decade is his best chance. So what if Flacco had an Elite d in Baltimore sometimes.  It still takes a professional to manage expectations, blame, media, fans week in and week out year in and year out. Cool Joe is a thing and Lock can learn much more from him than Keenum.

 

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11 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

I like how you said Qb was a huge problem because I do feel better about that position this year than any point since Manning was signed in 2012. (emphasized since 2012 because I was worried about PMs arm strength after that 2012 playoff game.) Glad I was wrong. 

With all that being said Joe Flacco in my mind is totally worth the 4th round pick used to aquire him to be the qb in the now regardless of statistics comparing him to Keenum. The guy was the CEO of an offense for 11 years. He wasn't some journeyman undrafted QB that overachieved one year. Whether people believe in Lock or not learning behind a guy that's been a Ceo of a football team for a decade is his best chance. So what if Flacco had an Elite d in Baltimore sometimes.  It still takes a professional to manage expectations, blame, media, fans week in and week out year in and year out. Cool Joe is a thing and Lock can learn much more from him than Keenum.

 

I agree. I believe Flacco is a good QB who will be able to shoulder this team at the position for a while. 

When you draft a QB you can scout all you want but you simply don't know how it's going to work. There's been as many QB busts as successes if not more. The front office took a chance on Lynch and it didn't work. Hopefully Lock will have more chance of being the franchise and I certainly believe he has more chance of success learning behind Flacco. 

I hope Flacco can show he can hold the job for the season, if not two. This would allow Drew to have no pressure on him, take the time to learn and be ready for when the handover takes place. Additionally I do feel Joe has a chip on his shoulder losing his position to Lamar Jackson and will hopefully mean he wants to prove he can still play at a top level in this league. 

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So far the media coverage sucks. If you're a "skill player" and you fart someone will write a column about it. As far as whats happening in the trenches it's like it doesn't exist. 

What we know is either McGovern or Jones or both can't snap the ball well, our DL is batting down balls and Risner pulled well the other day. Von's still Von, everybody and their brother has lined up at ILB, and somebodies on the field at each position on the OL and DL.

We really need someone from the forum to watch a practice and report back.

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