Training Camp Notes & Observations

[champ11]

4 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

It's the first preseason game of the first year of Drew lock. The first depth Chart means zero to me. You look back to 2017 Chiefs had Patty Mahomes as the 3rd qb before having him move to number two on the depth chart. If Kevin Hogan makes the final 53 I'd be Shocked. 

The order on which they play Thursday means little to me. 

 

i'm talking about keeping 3 QBs on the 53. I think I complain about this every year lol 

[Broncofan]

20 minutes ago, champ11 said:

that's insane to me. i'll never understand keeping 3 QBs. We're losing football games if Hogan is in there...might as well have it be Lock. Or just sign some scrub off the street rather than using a roster spot on Hogan

I’m not a fan of Hogan at all.  So don’t misunderstand me here.  It’s just that Elway isn’t ever going to call it a rebuilding year right from week 1.   That means having a backup who can run the full playbook and read NFL level D’s week 1 if something happens to Flacco.   Sadly even though he’s limited in talent knowing the O and having NFL experience that makes Hogan the guy to keep until the rookies are ready to catch up to NFL level speed and handle the entire O.

We all recognize Lock needs work and is far from a lock to succeed (pun intended) -    It’s very rare to see those guys ever start the year as the backup now.   Lamar Jackson had RG3 as Flacco’s immediate  backup last year until he was ready to try and start.   I suspect we see the same here. 

I wish it wouldn’t go that way but I’d be shocked at any other result.  

Edited July 30, 2019 by Broncofan

[thebestever6]

12 minutes ago, champ11 said:

i'm talking about keeping 3 QBs on the 53. I think I complain about this every year lol 

Well they changed the emergency qb rule in 2011 I tend to agree the best teams I feel have dual threat players who are emergency  qbs . I.e new England with Edelman, now they're trying to convert etling to wr so if he makes the roster he can be that third guy. Or Saints With Taysum Hill, or Ravens with Mcsorley. 

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by thebestever6

[champ11]

6 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I’m not a fan of Hogan at all.  So don’t misunderstand me here.  It’s just that Elway isn’t ever going to call it a rebuilding year right from week 1.   That means having a backup who can run the full playbook and read NFL level D’s week 1 if something happens to Flacco.   Sadly even though he’s limited in talent knowing the O and having NFL experience that makes Hogan the guy to keep until the rookies are ready to catch up to NFL level speed and handle the entire O.

We all recognize Lock needs work and is far from a lock to succeed (pun intended) -    It’s very rare to see those guys ever start the year as the backup now.   Lamar Jackson had RG3 as Flacco’s immediate  backup last year until he was ready to try and start.   I suspect we see the same here. 

I wish it wouldn’t go that way but I’d be shocked at any other result.  

I guess my point is that Hogan is an objectively terrible QB so why does it matter if he is more used to being a bad QB at NFL speed than Lock is? You know lol. Not a question for you but more my problem w NFL teams being dumb 

[AKRNA]

27 minutes ago, champ11 said:

i'm talking about keeping 3 QBs on the 53. I think I complain about this every year lol 

It could happen this year. Sounds like Rypien has been the best of the backups so far. If he does well in preseason he'll never clear waivers for the PS. No way Lock would.

#1 Flacco

#2 Rypien

#3 Lock

[broncofan48]

26 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I guess my point is that Hogan is an objectively terrible QB so why does it matter if he is more used to being a bad QB at NFL speed than Lock is? You know lol. Not a question for you but more my problem w NFL teams being dumb 

100%. Cut Hogan and if you need him there’s pretty good odds he isn’t on someone else’s roster at mid season anyways

[thebestever6]

6 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

It could happen this year. Sounds like Rypien has been the best of the backups so far. If he does well in preseason he'll never clear waivers for the PS. No way Lock would.

#1 Flacco

#2 Rypien

#3 Lock

You're right and with the CBA and lingering debates on 18 game seasons possibly having to sub a starter 2 games. It seems like backup qbs are becoming more important to groom.

 

[Broncofan]

44 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I guess my point is that Hogan is an objectively terrible QB so why does it matter if he is more used to being a bad QB at NFL speed than Lock is? You know lol. Not a question for you but more my problem w NFL teams being dumb 

Personally I don’t think we can seriously contend so if we lose Flacco and the rookies aren’t ready so be it (to be fair I don’t see it in any event this year lol). But that’s not how Elway sees it.   The vet label matters so much.  

It’s how we had Mark Sanchez/Austin Davis on our roster in 2016.  How Osweiler made his 2nd tour back with us in 2017.  And why Hogan is signed now.  He’s not there to be anything but the babysitter until a rookie is ready.  But that’s the blueprint.   I’d personally go your route too, given our team trajectory. Just it’s hard to see a different outcome.  

Edited July 30, 2019 by Broncofan

[thebestever6]

3 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Personally I don’t think we can seriously contend so if we lose Flacco and the rookies aren’t ready so be it.   But that’s not how Elway sees it.   The vet label matters so much.  

It’s how we had Mark Sanchez on our roster.  How Osweiler made his 2nd tour back with us in 2017.  And why Hogan is signed now.   I’d personally go your route too given our team trajectory. Just it’s hard to see a different outcome.  

It's the Bubby Brister effect if this team was contending for the Superbowl.

But given how fast Nick mullens was ready last year maybe he'll have confidence in the coaching staff to have someone play if needed. Mark Sanchez didn't make the 53 so that gives me some hope.

 

 

[Danand]

On 28.7.2019 at 2:54 AM, thebestever6 said:

I like how you said Qb was a huge problem because I do feel better about that position this year than any point since Manning was signed in 2012. (emphasized since 2012 because I was worried about PMs arm strength after that 2012 playoff game.) Glad I was wrong. 

With all that being said Joe Flacco in my mind is totally worth the 4th round pick used to aquire him to be the qb in the now regardless of statistics comparing him to Keenum. The guy was the CEO of an offense for 11 years. He wasn't some journeyman undrafted QB that overachieved one year. Whether people believe in Lock or not learning behind a guy that's been a Ceo of a football team for a decade is his best chance. So what if Flacco had an Elite d in Baltimore sometimes.  It still takes a professional to manage expectations, blame, media, fans week in and week out year in and year out. Cool Joe is a thing and Lock can learn much more from him than Keenum.

 

Ravens fan jumping in here. Flacco didn't have an elite D outside of his first years in Baltimore. The Ravens in general is and has been a high floor defense with Flacco at QB. You guys have to prepare for an up and down QB who won't be a great QB in fantasy eyes, but you also won't have to fear you have a QB who falls flat in the playoffs. You will most likely hover around the .500 mark most of the season, but if you get in, you have a great QB who has 1 losing season in all his career and if not for 2 blown leads on the games last play, he would have been to the playoffs at least one more year. 

The bad thing - if your oline doesn't hold up, it will not be pretty

The good thing - Flacco is close to the only QB the last couple of years who can go into New England in the playoffs and win.

[AKRNA]

8 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Let’s face it Elway likely isn’t letting a rookie be the backup.   But yeah he’s a pure placeholder until someone is ready to take over.    

It’s hard to get excited about spending any snaps on Hogan but it’s the reality with both Lock and Rypien being rooks.  

In most circumstances I'd tend to agree, but not this year for several reasons, Most important being if Flacco goes down for any length of time we'd be screwed with Hogan as a backup anyway. I'm also not too sure that he ends up being the best of the three anyway.

With Lock/Rypien that could remind Elway of 83 and Elway/Kubiak. That worked out pretty well.

I just can't imagine him letting either Lock or Rypien go if they both show signs of development. One of Fangios rare compliments was directed at Rypien. He said he thinks Rypien has a future in the NFL. 

I just don't think Hogan makes the 53 unless both our rookies fall flat on their faces.

[Broncofan]

4 hours ago, AKRNA said:

In most circumstances I'd tend to agree, but not this year for several reasons, Most important being if Flacco goes down for any length of time we'd be screwed with Hogan as a backup anyway. I'm also not too sure that he ends up being the best of the three anyway.

With Lock/Rypien that could remind Elway of 83 and Elway/Kubiak. That worked out pretty well.

I just can't imagine him letting either Lock or Rypien go if they both show signs of development. One of Fangios rare compliments was directed at Rypien. He said he thinks Rypien has a future in the NFL. 

I just don't think Hogan makes the 53 unless both our rookies fall flat on their faces.

In 1983 Kubiak was the 3rd string QB.   Remember Deberg was the backup then and started 5 games in October/November when Elway had the rookie faceplant, and helped us win 4 games straight until he got hurt (and then it become the Elway/Kubiak show post-injury).  Either way that’s a different pre-cap era but the ‘83 blueprint used the established vet backup plan headed into the season. 

If this was a year with no win now aspirations I’d feel better about the likelihood of 2 rookies on 53-man roster scenario.  That’s just not in Elway’s MO or DNA given our franchise expectations.  

Edited July 30, 2019 by Broncofan

[Broncofan]

12 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

It's the Bubby Brister effect if this team was contending for the Superbowl.

But given how fast Nick mullens was ready last year maybe he'll have confidence in the coaching staff to have someone play if needed. Mark Sanchez didn't make the 53 so that gives me some hope.

 

 

Remember CJ Beathard went in as the established SF backup in 2018.   Mullens was the 3rd stringer who got his Nov starts only with Beathard’s injury.   Even for a “progressive” O mind like Kyle Shanahan going into week 1 with a rookie backup is rare as hen’s teeth, unless that guy is seen as a week 1 starter contender (which obv isn’t the case here).    

Later in season all bets are off, but it’s just a tall order to pencil in a rookie backup with guys who are seen as needing time.

I get all the disgust over the idea of Hogan as a backup.   He’s not a future chip at all.   It’s just that if you don’t believe a guy is good enough to start week 1 as a rookie you don’t pencil them in as the backup if there is any win-now to the plan.  I wouldn't mind if we were just all about 2020+, but we know Elway isn’t going full-on rebuild mode to start week 1.   

Edited July 30, 2019 by Broncofan

[champ11]

12 hours ago, Broncofan said:

I’m not a fan of Hogan at all.  So don’t misunderstand me here.  It’s just that Elway isn’t ever going to call it a rebuilding year right from week 1.   That means having a backup who can run the full playbook and read NFL level D’s week 1 if something happens to Flacco.   Sadly even though he’s limited in talent knowing the O and having NFL experience that makes Hogan the guy to keep until the rookies are ready to catch up to NFL level speed and handle the entire O.

We all recognize Lock needs work and is far from a lock to succeed (pun intended) -    It’s very rare to see those guys ever start the year as the backup now.   Lamar Jackson had RG3 as Flacco’s immediate  backup last year until he was ready to try and start.   I suspect we see the same here. 

I wish it wouldn’t go that way but I’d be shocked at any other result.  

I get it. I guess I could by the argument by the team that you need a professional that has a grasp on the playbook to respect the other players if Flacco went down. But you're still losing either way so it's just kind of absurd to me. But NFL teams refuse to move beyond what is expected of them 

[AKRNA]

6 hours ago, Broncofan said:

In 1983 Kubiak was the 3rd string QB.   Remember Deberg was the backup then and started 5 games in October/November when Elway had the rookie faceplant, and helped us win 4 games straight until he got hurt (and then it become the Elway/Kubiak show post-injury).  Either way that’s a different pre-cap era but the ‘83 blueprint used the established vet backup plan headed into the season. 

If this was a year with no win now aspirations I’d feel better about the likelihood of 2 rookies on 53-man roster scenario.  That’s just not in Elway’s MO or DNA given our franchise expectations.  

I do remember. What really sticks out about that season and the next was how well Kubiak grasped the mental aspects and how well he played. Lots of "water cooler" discusiions about putting Kubiaks head on Elways shoulders and you'd have the perfect QB. Thats kinda how this TC sounds to me. Locks got amazing talent but Rypiens got it between the ears. He's the perfect guy to have on the roster to help Lock along.

 My other point though is what I think will tip the scales. No way does Elway keep Hogan over Rypien if he agrees with Fangio, that Rypien has a future. As another poster mentioned if we have a QB emergency later in the year we can still probably call Hogan at home.

IMO Hogan will have to actually outplay both rookies, primarily Rypien,  convicingly to win a job.