HTTRDynasty Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said: You'd have to ask G. I value my sanity too much. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minutemancl Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 On 8/28/2019 at 11:20 PM, jrry32 said: While I have pushed back on people's eagerness to announce a winner in the Haskins/Jones contest, I want to make clear that I'm not picking one myself. We have a long ways to go. I had Haskins ranked higher because I think he has a higher ceiling. But he's far from a sure thing. Jones is a safe pick. I think he'll be a starting caliber QB. I compared him to Alex Smith. I think he fits well in Shurmur's offense. I just don't know if he'll ever escape the area where Alex Smith and Andy Dalton spent their careers. Basically, good enough that you're not actively looking to replace him but not so good that you're opposed to replacing him if something better comes along. I (mostly) agree. I think there is something to be said though about the fact that the Giants did draft Jones over Haskins, partly because of how well he fits in with Shurmur's offense. How do people feel about head coaches/offensive coordinators being so confident in their offensive schemes that they look for the guy who has the tools to run the offense the best rather than the most talented guy, or the guy with the highest ceiling? If it works out with Jones, does that change anything? Even in preseason, you can see how different Shurmur's offense looks and how it is supposed to be run when Jones is at the helm over Eli. For me, the pick made a lot more sense after reports from training camp and preseason week 1 (it helped that Jones was perfect). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmen Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, minutemancl said: I (mostly) agree. I think there is something to be said though about the fact that the Giants did draft Jones over Haskins, partly because of how well he fits in with Shurmur's offense. How do people feel about head coaches/offensive coordinators being so confident in their offensive schemes that they look for the guy who has the tools to run the offense the best rather than the most talented guy, or the guy with the highest ceiling? If it works out with Jones, does that change anything? Even in preseason, you can see how different Shurmur's offense looks and how it is supposed to be run when Jones is at the helm over Eli. For me, the pick made a lot more sense after reports from training camp and preseason week 1 (it helped that Jones was perfect). Calling a quarterback a ‘good fit for a system’ or a ‘safe pick’ or comparing him to Alex Smith are poorly veiled insults. Jones has the talent to succeed in any system. He’s 22 years old and just completed 30 out of 34 passes. That doesn’t happen by accident, and it has nothing to do with the system. He’s a very talented passer and the sky is the ceiling for the kid. He’s the perfect successor to Eli. I do think that Shurmur liked him over Haskins in part because Jones has more athleticism. Shurmur likes to move the pocket and run bootlegs. That’s one aspect we haven’t seen from Jones in preseason. He’s just been sitting in the pocket and carving up defenses with his arm. I’m excited to see his athleticism utilized moving forward. Edited August 30, 2019 by Gmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minutemancl Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, Gmen said: Calling a quarterback a ‘good fit for a system’ or a ‘safe pick’ or comparing him to Alex Smith are poorly veiled insults. Jones has the talent to succeed in any system. He’s 22 years old and just completed 30 out of 34 passes. That doesn’t happen by accident, and it has nothing to do with the system. He’s a very talented passer and the sky is the ceiling for the kid. He’s the perfect successor to Eli. I'm not comparing him to Alex Smith, he was a prospect before I started really watching football, but I don't think saying Jones is a perfect fit for Shurmur's offense is an insult. Jones does some particular things really, really well. It happens that those things he does really well are the most desirable traits for a QB in Shurmur's offensive system. That's not to say that those traits aren't desirable in other offensive systems as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 12 minutes ago, Gmen said: Calling a quarterback a ‘good fit for a system’ or a ‘safe pick’ or comparing him to Alex Smith are poorly veiled insults. Jones has the talent to succeed in any system. He’s 22 years old and just completed 30 out of 34 passes. That doesn’t happen by accident, and it has nothing to do with the system. He’s a very talented passer and the sky is the ceiling for the kid. He’s the perfect successor to Eli. I do think that Shurmur liked him over Haskins in part because Jones has more athleticism. Shurmur likes to move the pocket and run bootlegs. That’s one aspect we haven’t seen from Jones in preseason. He’s just been sitting in the pocket and carving up defenses with his arm. I’m excited to see his athleticism utilized moving forward. In fairness, that is kind of insulting to Alex Smith. I get the largely underhwhelming feeling that Smith leaves a lot of people, but the fact of the matter is, it's not "easy" to find a quarterback of that caliber, even in the first round of the draft and if Jones is comparable to Alex Smith, you guys did well. There's a reason that he's started 160+ games in the NFL (and would have been over 200 had he not gotten hit with the injuries). All Jrry is doing is scouting the player and seeing perceived limitations. That's okay. That's what scouting is. He may be right, may be wrong, but I don't think it's an insult to Jones. If he becomes Alex Smith, that pick is a success. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said: Not sure where this straw man came from. Reading through draft profiles from reputable websites, I haven’t seen these “weak” arm knocks. Most say his arm strength is average or “good enough”. The most consistent knocks I’ve seen are his patting the ball too much and references to his poor decision-making, which really hasn’t been tested yet. This 100%. 17 minutes ago, Gmen said: Calling a quarterback a ‘good fit for a system’ or a ‘safe pick’ or comparing him to Alex Smith are poorly veiled insults. Jones has the talent to succeed in any system. He’s 22 years old and just completed 30 out of 34 passes. That doesn’t happen by accident, and it has nothing to do with the system. He’s a very talented passer and the sky is the ceiling for the kid. He’s the perfect successor to Eli. I do think that Shurmur liked him over Haskins in part because Jones has more athleticism. Shurmur likes to move the pocket and run bootlegs. That’s one aspect we haven’t seen from Jones in preseason. He’s just been sitting in the pocket and carving up defenses with his arm. I’m excited to see his athleticism utilized moving forward. Why is that an insult? Brady is a good fit for the system, but it doesn't mean he's not still the GOAT QB. I don't think "Good fit for the system" is the same as "He is only decent because he's in that system". I also think "Safe pick" doesn't mean "low ceiling" as much as it means "high floor". And I don't think the Alex Smith comparison is super fair, not because Alex Smith wasn't good or whatever (he's much better than people give him credit for), but rather because the questions reasonable people have about Jones are tied more so to decision making and not arm strength. Yeah, some people might have questioned it, but the reality is that you don't need a Mahomes arm to be successful in this league. It may help, but you really just need to be able to make the throws. Most QBs fail not because of arm ability, but because of the mental aspect of the position, which is still an unknown with Jones (and every other rookie QB). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 I thought Haskins looked good last night against the Ravens 2nd string defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: I thought Haskins looked good last night against the Ravens 2nd string defense. Yeah, he's not ready, but there are certainly tools there that can make him a good quarterback in the future. I think it's probably wise for them to roll with Keenum for the time being though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 25 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: I thought Haskins looked good last night against the Ravens 2nd string defense. I agree. It should probably be noted that he was playing with 2nd stringers as well. He really impressed me with his movement within the pocket against the blitz, keeping his eyes downfield, and hitting the open man. He's already improved a ton in that area compared to game 1 of preseason. He also would have had more opportunities to drive it downfield if his guys didn't drop an easy 3-4 balls. I would have loved to see Haskins play with the starters at some point this preseason, but Gruden is stubborn as a mule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 5 hours ago, minutemancl said: I (mostly) agree. I think there is something to be said though about the fact that the Giants did draft Jones over Haskins, partly because of how well he fits in with Shurmur's offense. How do people feel about head coaches/offensive coordinators being so confident in their offensive schemes that they look for the guy who has the tools to run the offense the best rather than the most talented guy, or the guy with the highest ceiling? If it works out with Jones, does that change anything? Even in preseason, you can see how different Shurmur's offense looks and how it is supposed to be run when Jones is at the helm over Eli. For me, the pick made a lot more sense after reports from training camp and preseason week 1 (it helped that Jones was perfect). He's a good fit. Shurmur loves moving the pocket and stretching the field horizontally. Jones fits well in that sort of scheme. Case Keenum played well in it for similar reasons. Shurmur is unlike say Sean McVay, Norv Turner, or Kyle Shanahan who ask their QBs to read long to short, Shurmur's scheme focuses on taking the high percentage pass. His NFL scheme will have a lot of similarities to his college scheme. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said: You'd have to ask G. He spent most of this thread deflecting arguments about Jones' arm, so I just assumed these arguments weren't made up. I thought the main thing about Jones was just that he was taken too early. My main thing with Jones is that I don't see a high ceiling. I think whether or not he has a "weak arm" is relative. For the entirety of NFL QBs, I'd call it middling. For NFL starters, I'd call it weak. But it's not like it's so weak that it prevents him from being a good QB. It's good enough. I simply see a guy who isn't special at anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmen Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 hour ago, jrry32 said: My main thing with Jones is that I don't see a high ceiling. I think whether or not he has a "weak arm" is relative. For the entirety of NFL QBs, I'd call it middling. For NFL starters, I'd call it weak. But it's not like it's so weak that it prevents him from being a good QB. It's good enough. I simply see a guy who isn't special at anything. Get a new optometrist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Gmen said: Get a new optometrist. I mean, that doesn't make Jrry wrong.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Just now, Forge said: I mean, that doesn't make Jrry wrong.... We'll wait and see. Hopefully, Gmen doesn't misstate my position in a few years if I end up being right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmen Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, jrry32 said: We'll wait and see. Hopefully, Gmen doesn't misstate my position in a few years if I end up being right. http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=577504&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 "I think it'll be Wentz. I love Goff but Fisher and Snead tend to go for the high upside guys in the 1st round. I also think very highly of Wentz. Either ways, I'm pumped." - jrry32 You rode that fence until reports started coming out that the Rams were taking Goff, then you were all in on Goff. I don't blame you necessarily. I flipped flopped between Haskins and Jones too prior to the draft. The Rams made the wrong choice, by the way. I'll give you credit - you nailed the assessment that Wentz has a higher upside than Goff. And we see today that he's a much better quarterback. Now we're stuck dealing with him in the NFCE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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