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Daniel Jones is looking better than Haskins


Vladimir L

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10 minutes ago, Gmen said:

It's just another well respected football voice disagreeing with jrry's assessment.

And he's been wrong before...just like Jrry has, just like I have, etc etc etc. Someone will be wrong about Jones...it's too early to know who. Just like it's too early to say that Haskins is a disappointment. 

The arm strength thing isn't really a care of mine. His arm is good enough. After that, I don't really care if it's Matthew Stafford level or Alex Smith level. He just needs to be able to make all the throws. He's not Nick Mullens back there. Arm strength is also very subjective at times. Jrry and Cosell may have different standards for what they are seeking in a quarterback, which is also acceptable. It's all opinion. 

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11 minutes ago, Gmen said:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=577504&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

"I think it'll be Wentz. I love Goff but Fisher and Snead tend to go for the high upside guys in the 1st round. I also think very highly of Wentz. Either ways, I'm pumped." - jrry32

You rode that fence until reports started coming out that the Rams were taking Goff, then you were all in on Goff.  I don't blame you necessarily.  I flipped flopped between Haskins and Jones too prior to the draft.

The Rams made the wrong choice, by the way.  I'll give you credit - you nailed the assessment that Wentz has a higher upside than Goff. And we see today that he's a much better quarterback. Now we're stuck dealing with him in the NFCE. 

 

Literally the day after the trade (April 15th):

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=577506&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180

"Yes. I've been talking about Wentz since October and I mentioned him as a QB to watch in 2015 in March of last year. 

I'd take Goff over Wentz because I think Goff is a safer pick and more pro ready but both are incredibly talented QBs."

I had Goff as my #1 QB during literally the entire 2015 CFB season. Then, I had him as my #1 QB the entire 2016 off-season. You're best off admitting you're wrong now. With a little bit of digging, I will have no issues digging up more receipts if you continue to deny it. I never waffled on Goff being my #1 choice.

EDIT: As for Wentz being better than Goff, that is debatable at best. However, even if you believe Wentz is better, availability is everything with QBs. I'm quite happy with the pick we made.

Edited by jrry32
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@jrry32 At the risk of making this about Goff vs Wentz, ironically I think your assessment of Jones applies to Goff. He’s a system quarterback surrounded by 3 good receivers, a great running back, a good offensive line, and a clever coach. It’s tough to find a quarterback that wouldn’t be successful in that system and situation. But Wentz would do so much better. There are over a dozen quarterbacks that given that situation win the Super Bowl last year. Guys that can not only make the routine plays, but can also step up and make some wow plays. Goff gave them nothing in that Super Bowl, and was middling all throughout the playoffs. If Jones turns into a Goff (knock on wood), I’d like a refund. 

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1 minute ago, Gmen said:

@jrry32 At the risk of making this about Goff vs Wentz, ironically I think your assessment of Jones applies to Goff. He’s a system quarterback surrounded by 3 good receivers, a great running back, a good offensive line, and a clever coach. It’s tough to find a quarterback that wouldn’t be successful in that system and situation. But Wentz would do so much better. There are over a dozen quarterbacks that given that situation win the Super Bowl last year. Guys that can not only make the routine plays, but can also step up and make some wow plays. Goff gave them nothing in that Super Bowl, and was middling all throughout the playoffs. If Jones turns into a Goff (knock on wood), I’d like a refund. 

If Jones averages 4000+ yards, 30 TDs, 8+ YPA, and a 100+ passer rating in his second and third years in the NFL, you'll be thanking Jesus for him. I'll take my system QB. At 24 years old, he has two Pro Bowl appearances, a Super Bowl appearance, two 100+ passer rating seasons, two 8+ YPA seasons, a 4000+ yards 30+ TD season, two 10+ win seasons, two division titles, a season leading the highest scoring offense in the NFL, a season leading the second highest scoring offense in the NFL, and is tied with Drew Brees and Tom Brady with a league leading 24 wins over the past two regular seasons. If that's a system QB, every team in the NFL should run our system. 

Goff threw for 4600+ yards, 32 TDs, 8.4 YPA, and a 101.1 passer rating last year. The Rams went 13-3. The Rams' offense scored 32.9 PPG. How many system QBs have pulled that off?

BTW, you still haven't admitted that you were wrong when you claimed that I sat on the fence w/r/t Goff and Wentz.

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2 hours ago, jrry32 said:

If Jones averages 4000+ yards, 30 TDs, 8+ YPA, and a 100+ passer rating in his second and third years in the NFL, you'll be thanking Jesus for him. I'll take my system QB. At 24 years old, he has two Pro Bowl appearances, a Super Bowl appearance, two 100+ passer rating seasons, two 8+ YPA seasons, a 4000+ yards 30+ TD season, two 10+ win seasons, two division titles, a season leading the highest scoring offense in the NFL, a season leading the second highest scoring offense in the NFL, and is tied with Drew Brees and Tom Brady with a league leading 24 wins over the past two regular seasons. If that's a system QB, every team in the NFL should run our system. 

Goff threw for 4600+ yards, 32 TDs, 8.4 YPA, and a 101.1 passer rating last year. The Rams went 13-3. The Rams' offense scored 32.9 PPG. How many system QBs have pulled that off?

BTW, you still haven't admitted that you were wrong when you claimed that I sat on the fence w/r/t Goff and Wentz.

Well, go look at Alex Smith’s 2017 season. A game manager, system quarterback, with an average arm surrounded by great offensive talent. In 15 games, 4000 yards, 25 TDs, 5 INTs, 100 QBR. Playing quarterback with Kelce, Hill, Hunt, and offensive genius coach is easy. Playing quarterback with Gurley, Woods, Cooks, Kupp and McVay is easy. Honestly, Goff has 3 receivers that would be #1s on the Giants right now. Then they lose Gurley in the playoffs and suddenly Goff looks a lot more like “Alex Smith”. 

And on the flip side, playing quarterback at Duke with wide receivers that can’t catch a cold, and turnstiles on the offensive line is difficult. It’s not a coincidence Jones looks better with the Giants than he ever did at Duke. Even though he’s throwing to 2nd and 3rd string receivers, at least they’re good enough to be in the NFL. 

If you can create parallel universes and put all the NFL quarterbacks on the same team, Basically create a controlled environment with the quarterbacks being the only variable, our perception of who is good and not would be very different. 

I mean, you can’t talk about how you loved both Goff and Wentz, and expect me to believe you weren’t on the fence. Furthermore, why are you in such a hurry admit you liked Goff more than Wentz? It was not the right choice 

Edited by Gmen
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31 minutes ago, Gmen said:

If you can create parallel universes and put all the NFL quarterbacks on the same team, Basically create a controlled environment with the quarterbacks being the only variable, our perception of who is good and not would be very different. 

There's a little more to it than that though.  A smart team will build to it's QB's strengths, personnel, scheme, everything.  

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20 minutes ago, Gmen said:

Well, go look at Alex Smith’s 2017 season. A game manager, system quarterback, with an average arm surrounded by great offensive talent. In 15 games, 4000 yards, 25 TDs, 5 INTs, 100 QBR. Playing quarterback with Kelce, Hill, Hunt, and offensive genius coach is easy. Playing quarterback with Gurley, Woods, Cooks, Kupp and McVay is easy. Honestly, Goff has 3 receivers that would be #1s on the Giants right now. Then they lose Gurley in the playoffs and suddenly Goff looks a lot more like “Alex Smith”. 

Gurley missed the last two games of the regular season. Goff threw for 5 TDs to 0 Ints, 8+ YPA, and a ~127 passer rating. So much for that argument. As for the playoffs, there are some first-ballot HOFers who didn't play well in the playoffs as young QBs. I guess they looked like "Alex Smith" too. 

BTW, Alex Smith's season fails to meet the mark. And it's quite notable that Goff has had back-to-back strong seasons. Smith never has. He has one outlier season at 33 years old. Goff put up back-to-back great seasons by 24 years old. Feel free to call him a system QB. Any team who doesn't run our system is stupid if that's all it takes to make a supposedly mediocre QB put up great QB production and top 2 scoring offenses.

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And on the flip side, playing quarterback at Duke with wide receivers that can’t catch a cold, and turnstiles on the offensive line is difficult. It’s not a coincidence Jones looks better with the Giants than he ever did at Duke. Even though he’s throwing to 2nd and 3rd string receivers, at least they’re good enough to be in the NFL. 

If you can create parallel universes and put all the NFL quarterbacks on the same team, Basically create a controlled environment with the quarterbacks being the only variable, our perception of who is good and not would be very different. 

 

Great. You can live in that fantasy land. I'll live in the reality where Jared Goff produces like a top 5 to 10 QB, leads a highly productive offense, and has experienced both incredible individual and team success for his age and experience. Basically, I'll keep my "system QB," and you'll be lucky if Daniel Jones comes anywhere close to what "my system QB" is accomplishing.

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I mean, you can’t talk about how you loved both Goff and Wentz, and expect me to believe you weren’t on the fence.

What a silly deflection after you were proven to be full of excrement. "You can't think highly of the two top QB prospects. Even though you clearly chose one, it proves that you were on the fence." Imagine having to make such an unintelligent argument because you don't have the integrity to own your dishonest claim.

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Furthermore, why are you in such a hurry admit you liked Goff more than Wentz? It was not the right choice 

Here's another dumb deflection. I corrected the record after you lied about my stance prior to the draft. I already addressed whether it was the right choice or not.

Now, are you going to try more pathetic deflections to avoid owning being wrong?

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15 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Gurley missed the last two games of the regular season. Goff threw for 5 TDs to 0 Ints, 8+ YPA, and a ~127 passer rating. So much for that argument. As for the playoffs, there are some first-ballot HOFers who didn't play well in the playoffs as young QBs. I guess they looked like "Alex Smith" too. 

I see you conveniently left out that they played the two worst teams in the NFL in those two games.  Good choice.

18 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

BTW, Alex Smith's season fails to meet the mark. And it's quite notable that Goff has had back-to-back strong seasons. Smith never has. He has one outlier season at 33 years old. Goff put up back-to-back great seasons by 24 years old.

Smith had one season with Kelce, Hill and Hunt before Mahomes came along. Goff has had two seasons with his fantastic supporting cast.  Age has nothing to do with it.  If McVay hadn't come along, Goff's career trajectory would likely look like Smith's.

19 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Feel free to call him a system QB.

I will

20 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Any team who doesn't run our system is stupid if that's all it takes to make a supposedly mediocre QB put up great QB production and top 2 scoring offenses.

Not every team has the coaching and personnel to pull off what the Rams were doing. The Patriots seemed to figure it out by the Superbowl.  Maybe things will change going forward.

21 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I'll live in the reality where Jared Goff produces like a top 5 to 10 QB, leads a highly productive offense

Again, producing on a team stacked with offensive talent isn't difficult even for an average quarterback.  See Alex Smith 2017.  That offense is lead by McVay and Gurley.

22 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Basically, I'll keep my "system QB,"

What else can you do?

23 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

and you'll be lucky if Daniel Jones comes anywhere close to what "my system QB" is accomplishing.

Daniel Jones is a Manning through and through. He'll get his two Superbowl wins by the time his career is over.  He'll come through in the clutch.

24 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

What a silly deflection after you were proven to be full of excrement. "You can't think highly of the two top QB prospects. Even though you clearly chose one, it proves that you were on the fence."

It's really the only strategy you can take.  Imagine going all in on Wentz, and then the Rams take Goff.  Then you have to do a 180, because of course you're going to support your guy.  So instead you just say you like both, and then you can't lose.  Listen, it's a good strategy.  Like I said, I did the same thing. 

28 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Imagine having to make such an unintelligent argument because you don't have the integrity to own your dishonest claim.

There goes jrry again, trying to establish how intellectual and full of integrity he is. Listen, you're as big of a Rams homer as I am a Giants homer.  The difference is I'll admit it.  It's not a coincidence that you've gone on this rampage after I called Goff a system quarterback. 

30 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Here's another dumb deflection. I corrected the record after you lied about my stance prior to the draft. I already addressed whether it was the right choice or not.

Now, are you going to try more pathetic deflections to avoid owning being wrong?

You're clearly upset.  There's no need for words like "dumb" or "pathetic".  We don't need bullying on Footballsfuture. 

 

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Just now, Gmen said:

It's really the only strategy you can take.  Imagine going all in on Wentz, and then the Rams take Goff.  Then you have to do a 180, because of course you're going to support your guy.  So instead you just say you like both, and then you can't lose.  Listen, it's a good strategy.  Like I said, I did the same thing. 

There goes jrry again, trying to establish how intellectual and full of integrity he is. Listen, you're as big of a Rams homer as I am a Giants homer.  The difference is I'll admit it.  It's not a coincidence that you've gone on this rampage after I called Goff a system quarterback. 

You're clearly upset.  There's no need for words like "dumb" or "pathetic".  We don't need bullying on Footballsfuture. 

I don't respect people who lie about my stances. I've never shied away from my bad takes. I own them. For example, I thought Goff, Wentz, Lynch, and Cook would all be franchise QBs from that class. I acknowledged that based on the probabilities, I'd likely end up being wrong about 2 of the 4, but I stuck to my guns. I was wrong about Lynch and Cook. I own that. What I never did was sit on the fence about Goff. He was always my choice. I even stated that I would make an RGIII-esque trade for Goff months before we traded up for him. Here's as conclusive of evidence as you will get:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=577631

I chose Goff in my mock. Scroll down to the comments. Here's Dee Rawl's question to me:

"Curious, I know you would choose Goff, but who do you think the Rams WILL take at 1?"

Here's my response:

"Carson Wentz"

It can't get any clearer than that. Despite the fact that I believed the Rams would choose Wentz, I chose Goff. And I chose Goff every time I was asked. I've now given you three different instances of it. Yet, you still haven't owned up to being dishonest about my stance. I am "full of integrity." If I am wrong, I own it. I expect that from others too. I am a huge Rams homer, but I was a huge Goff homer long before we were even in position to draft him. Stop lying. Stop deflecting. Own your incorrect claim.

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@jrry32 I don't know what was in your mind.  If you claim you liked Goff more than Wentz, so be it.  This isn't a sticking point for me.  But saying 'I really liked both players', and then calling me a liar or dishonest because I misinterpreted that as being 'on the fence' is a bit much, no?

 

Waitress : "Sir, would you like the cheesecake or creme brulee for dessert?"

jrry32 : "Well, I really like both. You can't go wrong with either one.  I'll go with cheesecake.  I've loved cheesecake since 2015"

Waitress : "You seemed on the fence there"

jrry32 : "YOU &%#!! LIAR!!!"

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43 minutes ago, Gmen said:

That offense is lead by McVay and Gurley.

Nothing says I know nothing about the Rams than this type of statement. Want to argue McVay, fine. But Gurley? He's an elite talent but a lot of the offenses best performances last year (KC, Minnesota) came in bad games by Gurley. Even before he slowed down later in the year, 2018 Gurley wasn't quite the same player as 2017 Gurley. We also didn't need him to be because Goff had made a step forward. 

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4 minutes ago, Gmen said:

@jrry32 I don't know what was in your mind.  If you claim you liked Goff more than Wentz, so be it.  This isn't a sticking point for me.  But saying 'I really liked both players', and then calling me a liar or dishonest because I misinterpreted that as being 'on the fence' is a bit much, no?

 

Waitress : "Sir, would you like the cheesecake or creme brulee for dessert?"

jrry32 : "Well, I really like both. You can't go wrong with either one.  I'll go with cheesecake.  I've loved cheesecake since 2015"

Waitress : "You seemed on the fence there"

jrry32 : "YOU &%#!! LIAR!!!"

You don't need to know what was in my mind. I wrote it down on FootballsFuture. I showed you multiple posts where I explicitly chose Goff. I called you dishonest because you doubled down instead of admitting you were wrong. All you had to say in response to the first receipt I gave you was, "My mistake. You did choose Goff back then. I remembered wrong." It would have been all good. You couldn't bring yourself to do that after you took a shot at me based on that false accusation. Have a good night. I'm done with this discussion.

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