2019 WR Corps

[packfanfb]

7 minutes ago, SSG said:

Completely fair.  

My opinion is based on what they'd shown prior which might not matter in the new offense.  McCarthy had traditionally got production out of it's WRs regardless of their talent and WR production was down last year.  Our QB had his worst season of his career and had a historically bad year in regards to throw aways.  I know some fans want to put 100% of those throwaways on the shoulder of AR12 but it's my opinion that piss poor talent in the WR was a bigger concern than QB talent.

I don't think it's really a lack of talent so much. I see two questions with our WR core. First, we are depending on some unproven talent (which is one of the reasons why I'm 100% behind keeping Kumerow on this roster as I think he helps us in 2019). This was especially the case last year when Allison (and Cobb) were gone for significant parts of the year and it was basically Adams plus the rookies for a while. Second, I think our receiving core consists of a true No. 1 and then a large group of players who I'd call true No. 3-4 guys. I've felt the last few years this team was missing a true No. 2 guy to pair with Adams, but MVS probably has the best chance to push that envelope this year given his skill-set. 

Third, you have to hope that a more creative offense is going to help these guys as well versus that "scheme" MM was trying to run. 

 

[SSG]

7 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

I don't think it's really a lack of talent so much. I see two questions with our WR core. First, we are depending on some unproven talent (which is one of the reasons why I'm 100% behind keeping Kumerow on this roster as I think he helps us in 2019). This was especially the case last year when Allison (and Cobb) were gone for significant parts of the year and it was basically Adams plus the rookies for a while. Second, I think our receiving core consists of a true No. 1 and then a large group of players who I'd call true No. 3-4 guys. I've felt the last few years this team was missing a true No. 2 guy to pair with Adams, but MVS probably has the best chance to push that envelope this year given his skill-set. 

Third, you have to hope that a more creative offense is going to help these guys as well versus that "scheme" MM was trying to run. 

 

I completely agree with the lack of a true #2.  

Hard telling right now if it's a lack or talent or it's just unproven players.  I'm not of the opinion that athleticism alone equates to talent like other. We've seen amazing athletes struggle something fierce (ie Jeff Janis).  Hopefully we see the consistency that was lacking last year.

Given how terrible our passing offense was last year I  don't understand why it's such a polarizing opinion to question the WR talent.  

[St Vince]

I swear people will shocked when the white stiff Kumerow puts up the 2nd best numbers behind Adams. I stepped on a landmine and taken to task a few weeks ago for having the audacity to say that he wasn't a huge drop off from Allison.

[Leader]

8 minutes ago, SSG said:

I completely agree with the lack of a true #2.  

Hard telling right now if it's a lack or talent or it's just unproven players.  I'm not of the opinion that athleticism alone equates to talent like other. We've seen amazing athletes struggle something fierce (ie Jeff Janis).  Hopefully we see the consistency that was lacking last year. Given how terrible our passing offense was last year I  don't understand why it's such a polarizing opinion to question the WR talent.  

Because I'm of the (unpopular) thinking that Mr. AR contributed mightily to that inconsistent passing game. Be it his leg injury. Be it he hated MM and wanted it all to die. Be it - I dont know what the **** it was - but he was stinking up the joint and it wasnt because he was throwing the ball to WRs that were dropping it. He wasnt throwing it.

Outside his every down chucking it to Adams manta - he's number two receiver was "out of bounds".
He had a perfect passer rating when throwing it out of bounds. Did it often and never missed.

Again. Just throw the ball to the WRs and let them do their job. Let THEM pick up the necessary yards as opposed to being the target at the end of a 30+ yard pass. It'll do wonders for picking up first downs. Increasing time of possession. Keeping the defense fresh....and lastly (but certainly not leastly....) it'll get the ball out of ARs hands so he's not getting hit so often.

I think I've changed my mind. I think I'm gonna stop waiting for GB to call me up to fill some defensive position because of injury. Rather, I think I should be hired as assistant to the assistant....to the assistant Offensive Coordinator

[Gopackgonerd]

9 minutes ago, St Vince said:

I swear people will shocked when the white stiff Kumerow puts up the 2nd best numbers behind Adams. I stepped on a landmine and taken to task a few weeks ago for having the audacity to say that he wasn't a huge drop off from Allison.

Shocked might be an understatement. I highly doubt it, unless we take some serious injuries from the likes of MVS, Allison, EQ. (Knocks on wood they don't) Even if he isn't a huge dropoff from Allison, Allison is still gonna get more playing time, as well as the others I just mentioned. 

[SSG]

3 minutes ago, Leader said:

Because I'm of the (unpopular) thinking that Mr. AR contributed mightily to that inconsistent passing game. Be it his leg injury. Be it he hated MM and wanted it all to die. Be it - I dont know what the **** it was - but he was stinking up the joint and it wasnt because he was throwing the ball to WRs that were dropping it. He wasnt throwing it.

Outside his every down chucking it to Adams manta - he's number two receiver was "out of bounds".
He had a perfect passer rating when throwing it out of bounds. Did it often and never missed.

Again. Just throw the ball to the WRs and let them do their job. Let THEM pick up the necessary yards as opposed to being the target at the end of a 30+ yard pass. It'll do wonders for picking up first downs. Increasing time of possession. Keeping the defense fresh....and lastly (but certainly not leastly....) it'll get the ball out of ARs hands so he's not getting hit so often.

I think I've changed my mind. I think I'm gonna stop waiting for GB to call me up to fill some defensive position because of injury. Rather, I think I should be hired as assistant to the assistant....to the assistant Offensive Coordinator

We'll agree to disagree.  You can't just close your eyes and heave the ball up to a WR who's not where he's supposed to be (especially in the old offense).  Outside of Adams the WRs were really inconsistent last year.  Also there were plenty of drops.  They couldn't catch a cold against Arizona for example.  

 

How many good offenses in the league last year needed 20 starts from a 5th round rookie,  a 6th round rookie and a 4 year practice squad player who'd never registered a NFL catch?  You talk like it's a bad QB that is our problem when the reality is there isn't an offense in the NFL that had success featuring that sort of talent at WR.  It's certainly one of the least talented groups of WRs that Mike McCarthy had ever featured.

QBs will throw it out of bounds when your WRs can't get open.  If a WR is incapable of being where he's supposed to be when Rodgers is going through his progressions it doesn't matter how free he his 4, 5 or 6 second into the play.  While he certainly missed some guys the idea that our WRs were running free every route and he decided to throw football games is far too far fetched for me.  I didn't see a QB who was trying to lose like you are describing.  

 If a terrible QB is suddenly our problem then our offense has much bigger issues than WR.  I don't see AR12 being the QB for an offense that has the WRs doing what ever they want.  He's not the Jamis Winston type of QB who's just gonna close his eyes and heave the ball down the field not caring about turnovers.  IMO that's exactly the caliber of QB you are describing.  

[ThatJerkDave]

3 hours ago, Norm said:

PayPal you a dollar each not to quote it

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, SSG said:

We'll agree to disagree.  You can't just close your eyes and heave the ball up to a WR who's not where he's supposed to be (especially in the old offense).  Outside of Adams the WRs were really inconsistent last year.  Also there were plenty of drops.  They couldn't catch a cold against Arizona for example.  

 

How many good offenses in the league last year needed 20 starts from a 5th round rookie,  a 6th round rookie and a 4 year practice squad player who'd never registered a NFL catch?  You talk like it's a bad QB that is our problem when the reality is there isn't an offense in the NFL that had success featuring that sort of talent at WR.  It's certainly one of the least talented groups of WRs that Mike McCarthy had ever featured.

QBs will throw it out of bounds when your WRs can't get open.  If a WR is incapable of being where he's supposed to be when Rodgers is going through his progressions it doesn't matter how free he his 4, 5 or 6 second into the play.  While he certainly missed some guys the idea that our WRs were running free every route and he decided to throw football games is far too far fetched for me.  I didn't see a QB who was trying to lose like you are describing.  

 If a terrible QB is suddenly our problem then our offense has much bigger issues than WR.  I don't see AR12 being the QB for an offense that has the WRs doing what ever they want.  He's not the Jamis Winston type of QB who's just gonna close his eyes and heave the ball down the field not caring about turnovers.  IMO that's exactly the caliber of QB you are describing.  

Rodgers was awful against Arizona.  Making any other claim is simply inaccurate.  He was awful regardless of what the receivers were doing.

Rodgers played like a coward last year. Wouldn't make a risky throw. Wouldn't stand in and take a hit to deliver a ball. 

It's ridiculous the extent some fans are willing to go to shield Rodgers.

It's not Rodgers, it's the receivers, it's McCarthy, it's the knee injury,  blah blah blah

[Shanedorf]

23 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Rodgers was awful against Arizona.  Making any other claim is simply inaccurate.  He was awful regardless of what the receivers were doing.

Rodgers played like a coward last year. Wouldn't make a risky throw. Wouldn't stand in and take a hit to deliver a ball. It's ridiculous the extent some fans are willing to go to shield Rodgers.

It's not Rodgers, it's the receivers, it's McCarthy, it's the knee injury,  blah blah blah

Coward seems a bit much, but OK.  To me, the real question isn't whether he did or didn't suck. (He did)
Figuring out why is the part that's illuminating. IF Rodgers runs the table again, he's gonna get a pat on the back and more of the same.
Time is fleeting, careers are short.  AR made an extremely difficult choice, but it was also one he had to make.
And it was one he would have regretted not making.
It was time for a regime change and many people in the organization played a role in bringing it to fruition. (Winston Moss's soliloquy included) 

I'm not betting against the guy and I'm not using 2018 as a barometer of anything related to the 2019 Packers

[craig]

Report that ESB made a couple of nice snags today.  Nice to hear anything positive from him, he's been a quiet guy in camp.  (I'm hoping it's because he gets open, is a big target when he's open, and catches the balls thrown to him when he's open.  Just making easy no-story-no-tweet catches?  I'm hoping Rodgers and the new offense provide a lot more easy completions.  

Gute was asked about Shepherd, and made reference to "slot receiver" position that MLF like to use sometimes in his offense.  I don't have the words right, but his wording implied MLF has interest in using a slot receiver Shepherd's small size.  I mention that because there have been notes about how Gute and perhaps MLF like the big guys, and how Rams used big guys in slot.  I think all of those things are true; but that perhaps he's got some sets where he would like a small/quick guy, even if it may not be often.  Early on, MLF made reference to wanting some diversity, doesn't want a basketball team with 5 point guards.  I infer he also might prefer not to have a basketball team, or a WR room, with 5 power forwards.  All of which means that if healthy, Davis has an obvious role in the group.  

I think the WR shakeup (roster-wise) is pretty simple.   In the happy event that nobody does get injured and Davis is back soon, it's simple.  Moore and Shepherd to PS, keep the other 6.  Simple. 

[Leader]

2 hours ago, SSG said:

We'll agree to disagree.  You can't just close your eyes and heave the ball up to a WR who's not where he's supposed to be (especially in the old offense).  Outside of Adams the WRs were really inconsistent last year.  Also there were plenty of drops.  They couldn't catch a cold against Arizona for example.  

 

How many good offenses in the league last year needed 20 starts from a 5th round rookie,  a 6th round rookie and a 4 year practice squad player who'd never registered a NFL catch?  You talk like it's a bad QB that is our problem when the reality is there isn't an offense in the NFL that had success featuring that sort of talent at WR.  It's certainly one of the least talented groups of WRs that Mike McCarthy had ever featured.

QBs will throw it out of bounds when your WRs can't get open.  If a WR is incapable of being where he's supposed to be when Rodgers is going through his progressions it doesn't matter how free he his 4, 5 or 6 second into the play.  While he certainly missed some guys the idea that our WRs were running free every route and he decided to throw football games is far too far fetched for me.  I didn't see a QB who was trying to lose like you are describing.  

 If a terrible QB is suddenly our problem then our offense has much bigger issues than WR.  I don't see AR12 being the QB for an offense that has the WRs doing what ever they want.  He's not the Jamis Winston type of QB who's just gonna close his eyes and heave the ball down the field not caring about turnovers.  IMO that's exactly the caliber of QB you are describing.  

You're right. We'll agree to disagree.

I think GBP fans have been sold a HUGE pile of **** regarding AR. To hear GBP fans tell it - we've got the most "perfectionist" QB to ever play the game. Nobody but nobody's ever played this game quite as (bone crushingly....) precise as our guy AR.

WR not in the exact spot at the precise moment the ball's supposed to be delivered? Oh well, throw it away and come back another day. 

B.S.

To hear GB fans tell it - we had the most unscripted offense around. "Just go get open...beat your man" is how they'll describe it. Okay. Fine....but wait, in this unscripted "scramble-drill" offense the WR has an exact time and place to be??????

Cant be both. Nope. That makes no sense......at all

Just throw them the effing ball!

Did the rookie WRs make some mistakes? I''m sure they did.....SO ADJUST THE THROW!

In EQs case we've got a 6'5 WR who can run like the wind and with a minor jump can reach a pass some 8' up in the air.
Cant get this guy the ball? Cause he's not "scrambling-drilling-it" to some exact location?

B.S.

Throw the effing ball.

Add on: Thats why I've been pushing for some form of "structured" offense. Thats my answer to getting the ball out of ARs hands to the WR/RBs. Cut down on this "winging-it" stuff....and throw the ball! Which will also serve to keep AR healthy. Quit running around with it....then ultimately throwing it away. Pick a target and throw it.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Leader

[Leader]

10 minutes ago, craig said:

Report that ESB made a couple of nice snags today.  Nice to hear anything positive from him, he's been a quiet guy in camp.  (I'm hoping it's because he gets open, is a big target when he's open, and catches the balls thrown to him when he's open.  Just making easy no-story-no-tweet catches?  I'm hoping Rodgers and the new offense provide a lot more easy completions.  

Gute was asked about Shepherd, and made reference to "slot receiver" position that MLF like to use sometimes in his offense.  I don't have the words right, but his wording implied MLF has interest in using a slot receiver Shepherd's small size.  I mention that because there have been notes about how Gute and perhaps MLF like the big guys, and how Rams used big guys in slot.  I think all of those things are true; but that perhaps he's got some sets where he would like a small/quick guy, even if it may not be often.  Early on, MLF made reference to wanting some diversity, doesn't want a basketball team with 5 point guards.  I infer he also might prefer not to have a basketball team, or a WR room, with 5 power forwards.  All of which means that if healthy, Davis has an obvious role in the group.  

I think the WR shakeup (roster-wise) is pretty simple.   In the happy event that nobody does get injured and Davis is back soon, it's simple.  Moore and Shepherd to PS, keep the other 6.  Simple. 

Davis can play in this league. Period.
What Davis hasnt proven he can do is get/stay healthy and (IMO) his career at GB is hanging in the balance as a consequence.

[incognito_man]

3 hours ago, St Vince said:

I swear people will shocked when the white stiff Kumerow puts up the 2nd best numbers behind Adams. I stepped on a landmine and taken to task a few weeks ago for having the audacity to say that he wasn't a huge drop off from Allison.

What's your risk here?

[Shanedorf]

10 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

What's your risk here?

He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
That dares not put it to the touch
To win or lose it all

[CWood21]

10 hours ago, SSG said:

It's not hyperbole, it's a difference in opinion.  You've got an extreme level of optimism about damn near every player we've ever rostered and I'm much more pessimistic.  Pretty sure you thought this was going to be an elite offense last year when the opposite was the reality.  When you look at Allison and MVS you see really good starting caliber WRs.  I see a 4th year guy with less than 800 career receiving yards and a sophomore that was playing as bad as any starting WR in the NFL over the second half.  We've got 1 WR on the roster who's shown that he's a good, consistent NFL starter.  Hopefully you are right and we see a substantial amount of improvement upon the terrible season our WR core had last year.

A difference in opinion is being on the same wavelength, but on different ends.  You and I are on completely different wave lengths.  And no, I certainly wouldn't say I'm the extreme level of optimism.  And there was reason to believe the Packers would be an elite offense.  Unless you truly believed that Rodgers and McCarthy would publicly feud, there really wasn't any reason to believe that the Packers' offense would suddenly fall off.  And fwiw, the Packers ranked 7th in DVOA on offense so the notion that they were awful isn't completely true.

10 hours ago, SSG said:

After looking a lil closer you are probably right that they aren't in the bottom 5 because of Adams but I'm not sure they are that far from.  WR cores like Detroit don't have a player like Adams but we don't have a #2 that comes anywhere close to Marvin Jones who was a 1100 yard/ 9 TD receiver in 17.

It's amazing how quickly you'll gloss over Davante Adams to jump to the #2 WRs, and even worse that you're going off outdated numbers.  In 2018, MVS had 38 receptions and 581 receiving yards on 691 snaps while Marvin Jones had 35 receptions and 508 receiving yards on 538 snaps.  But somehow, Marvin Jones' injury plagued season in 2018 is irrelevant, but the fact that MVS dealt with everything is relevant.

10 hours ago, SSG said:

The fact that we're talking about a 5th year guy who's got 8 career catches possibly breaking into the starting lineup kind of speaks to the level of talent we have in this WR core.  Did Jake Kumerow suddenly become a guy who's going to make any roster in the NFL or is he making our roster because it's really skimpy on quality WR talent.  I hope Allison and MVS develop into sure things but it's far from a  guarantee IMO.

I don't think anyone realistically thinks that Kumerow is a starting WR.  In fact, I think most have said he's at best your #3 WR behind Davante Adams and MVS.