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Dak Thread....still debating, beating a dead horse


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2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

Im assuming you mean for 2020?

Wilson

Mahomes

Brees (assuming his body isnt broken)

Brady (assuming his body isnt broken)

Rodgers (assuming his body isnt broken)

Watson

Jackson

 

Wilson

Mahomes

Watson (assuming his body isnt broken)

Jackson (assuming his body isnt broken)

I would not rank Brady over Dak. You are banking on what has been rather than what is if you do so. Brady couldn't get the ball 8 yards past the line of scrimmage without a long drawn out windup the last TWO years, imagine what will be this year. Cliffs get really steep after 40. 

Brees, for one year, maybe. But I dont like the changes you would need to make him successful. Colston, Thomas, Graham, Brees works best with big Bully targets. His speedy playmakers are his tertiary targets. Not his go to guys. He wouldn't work well here.

Watson I love. I think he is screwed in Houston and his career will be similar to Romos - a stud QB who couldn't go far because of a poor team, getting beaten around too often and getting hurt, and subpar coaching efforts. But still, I think Dak is a better pure thrower of the football. I'd still go with him.

And Lamar J is a gimmick player. I wouldn't put him over Dak either unless you are bringing all those TEs with him. He can throw a deep ball and he can throw to big TEs. When you force him to play pocket passer and throw accurate to the outside, he is 50/50 most of the time, and sometimes even worse than that. There was no coincidence they ran 3 tights and had 3 big time tight end targets who could also block, and drafted a speedy Hollywood Brown to run deep along the sideline where Jackson just has to hurl it deep and have no risk of a pick. It's a gimmick, a GREAT ONE, and if you google D94w's QB prospects thread from a couple years ago you will see I said Lamar would be a star, so I'm not knocking him. But gimmicks are hard to recreate, that situation is tough to beat but also tough on a front office and coaching staff to create. I'd not want that over a proven passer who is smart with the ball, great on the move, and blends new age play with the time tested adage of quarterbacks needing to be able to throw all the routes with positive results.

These QB debates are fruitless anyway. Especially with Dallas fans and Dallas pundits. Win a ring, you are the best to ever play here. Lose a tough game with a pick or go down with an injury, you are the worst and Jerry is an idiot for ever paying them. Theres never any realistic input or rational thought over this with Dallas QBs. Dallas QB situations have always been and always will be the ultimate bandwagon "what did they do the last game" situation. 

Shrug.

Edited by Dallas94Ware
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Most would we'd agree we did fairly well in addressing most of the needs on this team via the draft and free agency, right?

We were even able to add some relatively good depth and above average starters via FA, right? Maybe not largely lucrative deals...but that's ok, because I'm sure most would agree here that those teams that shell out large contracts to FA's often end up regretting it, right? I mean, look at LAR and Philly, and Washington, and...I could go on. 

That's all while roughly budgeting in Dak's $31.5MM tag hit. So...with him counting probably about $5MM more per year once he signs his deal, and with a cap that is likely to go up by a large amount next year and so on...why can't we field a competitive team and pay him?

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4 minutes ago, Texas_OutLaw7 said:

I love when gimmick players are MVP caliber players. In that case, give me alllllll the gimmick elite players.

Shrug.

Dont mistake what I said. I said it's a tough gimmick to beat, and just as tough to create. I could link my QB prospects thread from his draft class and show you where I said I believed he would be a star. So I'm not knocking him at all.

But that gimmick is hard to create. You could NOT put him on this team and expect him or the team to have more success than with Dak. That would be absolutely ridiculous to expect.

Problem with gimmicks is how all the other pieces have to enable that gimmick. Those 3 tight ends? Part of the gimmick. That power pulling run blocking line? Part of it. Ingram, a power pull runner? Part of it. Brown on the outside? Part of it. All of that offensive squad was designed to enable that gimmick and allow it to have success. Hell of a job by Lamar, by Harbaugh, by Roman, and by Ozzie's protege in that FO. 

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7 minutes ago, Dallas94Ware said:

Dont mistake what I said. I said it's a tough gimmick to beat, and just as tough to create. I could link my QB prospects thread from his draft class and show you where I said I believed he would be a star. So I'm not knocking him at all.

But that gimmick is hard to create. You could NOT put him on this team and expect him or the team to have more success than with Dak. That would be absolutely ridiculous to expect.

Problem with gimmicks is how all the other pieces have to enable that gimmick. Those 3 tight ends? Part of the gimmick. That power pulling run blocking line? Part of it. Ingram, a power pull runner? Part of it. Brown on the outside? Part of it. All of that offensive squad was designed to enable that gimmick and allow it to have success. Hell of a job by Lamar, by Harbaugh, by Roman, and by Ozzie's protege in that FO. 

That's a completely different thought, and I actually agree with this.

But, and frankly I think this is the big problem with fans, I would argue that *most* players need a proper scheme to truly succeed. Just because you are successful as a NT, doesn't mean you wouldn't better excel at a 3T. Scheme is SO important. You can win / lose games entirely on that. 

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2 minutes ago, Texas_OutLaw7 said:

That's a completely different thought, and I actually agree with this.

But, and frankly I think this is the big problem with fans, I would argue that *most* players need a proper scheme to truly succeed. Just because you are successful as a NT, doesn't mean you wouldn't better excel at a 3T. Scheme is SO important. You can win / lose games entirely on that. 

That is a very true statement. There are transcending players who could be great no matter what system or situation they are put in. But not every great player is such. And some very good players can still find some level of success in other situations.

And some situations, or gimmicks as I called it, are extremely tough to duplicate.  And some players who are MVP caliber because of their scheme and gimmick really would never, ever, succeed outside of that gimmick because that gimmick is the only way they can find success. Lamar, for how electric and amazing he is at what he does, would likely never have had that kind of year in Dallas, or likely anywhere outside of Greg Roman's system, that offensive unit designed to enable what Lamar does and hide what he does not do, and that staff who invested many picks and mucho dinero on the very gimmick that ran roughshod all over the NFL.

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3 hours ago, WizardHawk said:

LOLOLOL.....Come on Slam. Gonna have to do better than the Lions. The Rams roster is still in very good shape, they''re under the cap and have $40+ next year with Ramsey as their only big FA 

Dude, they have cut or traded most of their really good players from 2018.  That team is a shell of what it was.  It’s not hard to get under the cap when your release or trade 75% of your high priced vets.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, The_Slamman said:

Dude, they have cut or traded most of their really good players from 2018.  That team is a shell of what it was.  It’s not hard to get under the cap when your release or trade 75% of your high priced vets.

 

 

Indeed. Those high priced vets were going to severely handicap their ability to grow.

Now they have cut or released all those high price perceived stars, AND given up how many years of first round picks? 4? 5? Maybe 6? I dont remember. Plus how many other quality picks. They may get a few compensatories in a year or two, but you get nothing for players you flat out release so that teams got a long uphill battle of Goff is not going to be the next A rodgers

People in LA may be bandwagoning over to the Chargers sooner than later

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32 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Joey Ickles is an idiot Matts, since 2011 7 of 18 have only been on rookie contracts? You wanna know who make up 8 of the 11 other years for vets? Brady and 2 Manning's. 3 players combined, not exactly a large group. 2 of those players are debated as being the GOAT at their respective position. Is Dak arguably the GOAT.......wait......nvm....don't answer that i'm sure I know what you will say. So counting up the total number on vet contracts which would as Ickles point out bring it to 6 is still less then the majority of younger QB's having more success with less cap restraint. Oh and BTW of those 6 vets including the rookie contract guys you wanna guess how many won the SB within their first 4 years?

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/front-office/2018/05/29/does-a-high-salary-veteran-qb-hurt-your-super-bowl-chances/

Quote

 

I went back through the last 12 years to look at Super Bowl winning quarterback salaries and what percentage of the salary cap their salaries represented. Based on name and reputation, the list is pretty distinguished. Peyton Manning, Eli Manning and Tom Brady each won twice, plus appearances from Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Flacco, Russell Wilson and Nick Foles.

Using the numbers at Over The Cap, the highest percentage paid to a Super Bowl winning quarterback was 12.2% to Peyton Manning in 2015 with the Broncos. Everyone else was paid under 12% of the salary cap.

To further expand on those numbers, I looked at the quarterbacks in the conference championship games for those twelve years. Only 7 times (other than Peyton Manning in 2015) out of 48 did a team make it to the AFC or NFC championship game while paying more than 12% to the Quarterback.

Looking at the salaries for 2018 season, there are 13 quarterbacks scheduled to be paid above that 12% threshold, which is about $21.5 million. This includes six Super Bowl winners (Brady, Brees, Manning, Roethlisberger, Wilson, Flacco), quality veterans (Cam Newton, Philip Rivers, Matt Stafford, Derek Carr), new or fairly new starters (Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo) and others (Andrew Luck). That’s lot of talent with a lot of wins in that list of 13. 1,156 wins all together over the regular and postseasons. Money well earned. Incidentally, Garoppolo has the highest salary in 2018 at $37 million. He has 7 of those 1,156 wins.

 

So if this contract pans out the way Dak wants it too he will count at about 14% against the cap unless we backload it but you wanna hear something whacky?

Dak wants a 4 year contract right? So if we agree to his terms of paying him like Wilson for 4 years and we back load that contract we will still have about a 2 year window before we have to pay the rest in full UNLESS HE DECIDES TO RESTRUCTURE! And we all know how much of a team player Dak is squabbling over a year right? So with that 2 year window we would have to win the SB before his contract becomes staggering and unmanageable to keep other stars on the team to keep up the competitiveness. 

But we have another problem along with that little tidbit. You wanna know how many coaches have won the SB on their first year with the team? Wanna guess? @D82 @WizardHawk Go ahead and take a wild guess. After you're done looking up the answer, do you think Mike McCarthy is gonna be the 7th coach to do it in his first year on this team after we released 2 premium position players with Byron Jones and Robert Quinn?

So really that leaves us with 2021 as the only small window we have for actually making it too and winning the SB on Dak's massive effing contract. Plus like I said, something tells me he is not going to be willing to be fair with the team and RESTRUCTURE when he is not even willing to give a little and add a extra year onto the contract.

But hey maybe you guys and Ickles can bring up numerous times Dak has been willing to compromise with management this past year on the contract that gives you a warm in fuzzy when dealing with a restructure. 

So lets be clear. 1 YEAR we have to actually make the SB before serious restructure with Dak's contract need's to be done, and pointing out again that's if Dak is actually willing to do it.

Although yall are welcome to show me the window in yall think we have the best chance to win it. 

 

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1 hour ago, WizardHawk said:

Double like if I could ^^^ 

Double like for a post that didn't answer me the question I asked? If we had all the advantages of having Dak on a rookie contract with so much free money to capitalize on talent, then how does giving him 35M a year put us over the edge of being a Super Bowl contender? Since Matts dodges more questions then Neo dodges bullets, maybe you would care to answer?

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Here's the real problem with Dak's stance on his negotiations 4 years vs 5 and his unwillingness to "compromise"

Aside form not being able to spread out the cap hit the extra year to give a couple of cheaper years on the front

This goes off the basis of the rumoured Cowboys offer of 5 year 168 Million and Dak's counter of 4 years 140 Million

The key with the 4 year deal, is after 3 years Dak will want to jack the team for an extension and another raise, (or we will need to restructure to lower his cap hit) and with the cap going up that first year will start with a 4 and he'll want another 100+ million in guarantees put in his pocket. Given how he's handled this negotiation, what do you suppose one will look like going forward? Are the Cowboys interested in doing this again in 3 years?

So from Dak's point of view 4 years means 140 total in the bank, and after the 3rd year a renegotiation and another 40 million + put on the start of the new contract and 100 million more up front

Dak's deal puts at least 240 Million(minimum) in his pocket in 5 calendar years (potentially in 4 years if he re-ups after 3 seasons), The Cowboys offer puts 168 Million into his pocket in 5 calendar years. That's the difference

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46 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Joey Ickles is an idiot Matts, since 2011 7 of 18 have only been on rookie contracts? You wanna know who make up 8 of the 11 other years for vets? Brady and 2 Manning's. 3 players combined, not exactly a large group. 2 of those players are debated as being the GOAT at their respective position. Is Dak arguably the GOAT.......wait......nvm....don't answer that i'm sure I know what you will say. So counting up the total number on vet contracts which would as Ickles point out bring it to 6 is still less then the majority of younger QB's having more success with less cap restraint. Oh and BTW of those 6 vets including the rookie contract guys you wanna guess how many won the SB within their first 4 years?

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/front-office/2018/05/29/does-a-high-salary-veteran-qb-hurt-your-super-bowl-chances/

So if this contract pans out the way Dak wants it too he will count at about 14% against the cap unless we backload it but you wanna hear something whacky?

Dak wants a 4 year contract right? So if we agree to his terms of paying him like Wilson for 4 years and we back load that contract we will still have about a 2 year window before we have to pay the rest in full UNLESS HE DECIDES TO RESTRUCTURE! And we all know how much of a team player Dak is squabbling over a year right? So with that 2 year window we would have to win the SB before his contract becomes staggering and unmanageable to keep other stars on the team to keep up the competitiveness. 

But we have another problem along with that little tidbit. You wanna know how many coaches have won the SB on their first year with the team? Wanna guess? @D82 @WizardHawk Go ahead and take a wild guess. After you're done looking up the answer, do you think Mike McCarthy is gonna be the 7th coach to do it in his first year on this team after we released 2 premium position players with Byron Jones and Robert Quinn?

So really that leaves us with 2021 as the only small window we have for actually making it too and winning the SB on Dak's massive effing contract. Plus like I said, something tells me he is not going to be willing to be fair with the team and RESTRUCTURE when he is not even willing to give a little and add a extra year onto the contract.

But hey maybe you guys and Ickles can bring up numerous times Dak has been willing to compromise with management this past year on the contract that gives you a warm in fuzzy when dealing with a restructure. 

So lets be clear. 1 YEAR we have to actually make the SB before serious restructure with Dak's contract need's to be done, and pointing out again that's if Dak is actually willing to do it.

Although yall are welcome to show me the window in yall think we have the best chance to win it. 

 

I have literally responded and debunked that article no less than 25 times. 

All your bolding and large lettering is conjuncture, btw. Simply because you have no idea of the structure of the contract nor the cap

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1 hour ago, The_Slamman said:

Dude, they have cut or traded most of their really good players from 2018.  That team is a shell of what it was.  It’s not hard to get under the cap when your release or trade 75% of your high priced vets

The Lions have had like 5 good seasons in 3 decades. Stafford contract or not. 

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