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Dak Thread....still debating, beating a dead horse


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1 hour ago, WizardHawk said:

Probably.

I’d disagree that paying Dak his amount hurts the team more than paying Zeke his. Zeke is easily replaced, Dak is not .... and that is all the further I’ll go on the topic.

Even if you were right, and you aren't, the difference between Daks replaceable -ness and Zeke's isn't $25m a year.

...Maybeee $10m.

 

 

The league is growing more and more QB friendly. Replacing a guy who is middle of the pack in all individual passing statistics since 2016 isn't as hard as it used to be. Replacing Dez was harder than replacing Romo. Joe Flacco's, and Alex Smith's hit the market every year and that's about what Dak is. He's just younger. Plus rookie QBs are having success now more than ever. The league was different during the Dark Ages, than it is now. It's time to move on. 

I'd rather have Zeke and 2 other all pros, and pair them with a blue chip rookie QB, or a stop gap like Dak that's priced as such.

 

 

Edited by DaBoys
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I would also argue Zeke's contract doesn't really hurt the team at all. We had $9M laying around for Quinn what's 15 or 16 for the focus of our offense and the cap rising? 

 

So if Daks contract hinders us at all, it hinders us more than Zekes imo.

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38 minutes ago, DaBoys said:

Even if you were right, and you aren't, the difference between Daks replaceable -ness and Zeke's isn't $25m a year.

...Maybeee $10m.

 

 

The league is growing more and more QB friendly. Replacing a guy who is middle of the pack in all individual passing statistics since 2016 isn't as hard as it used to be. Replacing Dez was harder than replacing Romo. Joe Flacco's, and Alex Smith's hit the market every year and that's about what Dak is. He's just younger. Plus rookie QBs are having success now more than ever. The league was different during the Dark Ages, than it is now. It's time to move on. 

I'd rather have Zeke and 2 other all pros, and pair them with blue chip rookie QB, or stop gap like Dak that's priced as such.

 

 

This is a pretty bad faith argument.

Sure, replacing Romo cost us a fourth round pick (which is absolute luck) while replacing Dez cost us a first. But *having to* replace Romo cost us 11 of 12 games, while having to replace Dez cost us 5 of 8 (arguably 9 of 16, since he was hot trash from the 2017 Atlanta game onward and needed to be replaced then).

You could also argue that we haven’t really replaced Romo, in terms of value added on passing plays per any advanced statistical model... and yet the team is fine without him, because Dak brings more value with his rushing ability and intangibles. That’s why you can’t just go get a new Alex Smith even if that’s more or less what he is on the field. His teammates would run through a brick wall for him. It’s hard to quantify that.

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4 minutes ago, matt79511 said:

His teammates would run through a brick wall for him. It’s hard to quantify that.

I'd run through a brick wall for a 12 pack and the chance to eat fruit gushers off of a well endowed lady. Doesn't mean I'm paying 40 mil for the opportunity. No one is worth 40 mil until the cap bigger than it is now by a decent margin.

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1 minute ago, Ace5 said:

I'd run through a brick wall for a 12 pack and the chance to eat fruit gushers off of a well endowed lady. Doesn't mean I'm paying 40 mil for the opportunity. No one is worth 40 mil until the cap bigger than it is now by a decent margin.

I agree with that. You have to let him play out the year if those are the demands. But I think we’ll get hit for more like 35, which..... may not be so bad if the cap goes up a lot and he plays better.

What I’m saying is you run a greater risk of winning nothing of consequence with this current core by getting rid of Dak than you do by overpaying him. Things just feel contentious right now with the team and their contract situations. If they are able to weather the storm and stay focused (which they rarely have) then I think you have to put that on Dak’s leadership. Not taking care of him and making him the scapegoat clearly ups the turmoil.

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1 hour ago, matt79511 said:

I agree with that. You have to let him play out the year if those are the demands. But I think we’ll get hit for more like 35, which..... may not be so bad if the cap goes up a lot and he plays better.

This is exactly what makes it a bad deal. With the information we have now, $35M is terrible for us. In order for it not to be terrible, the cap has to go up, AND he has to be someone other that what he has been....

So let's pay up and cross those fingers, boys! 

 

Also we were actively trying to replace Dez from the moment we decided to cut him... 

 

We lost ZERO games trying to replace Romo. You can't count 2015 as trying to replace Romo, because you know..... we weren't.

 

Edited by DaBoys
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I get people stating the cap will go up and you can justify Dak at $35mill a year but what will LVEs contract look like then?

The rise in cap will cause others to want more as well.

Having a glorified game manager that's big in the clutch is not worth $35 million a year.

Let Dak play out this year and franchise him for $27 million next year.

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1 hour ago, matt79511 said:

You could also argue that we haven’t really replaced Romo, in terms of value added on passing plays per any advanced statistical model... and yet the team is fine without him, 

 

 

I do agree that we haven't replaced Romo's production. So there's no need to pay as though we have, just because Dak can lead. So can Jameis Winston. The leadership quality isn't actually that rare among QBs. You don't think Witten respects Romo? DeMarco Murray loved him. Dez loved him. T.O. loved him....

Your teammates liking you isn't reason enough for me, and I also don't think it's a rare find. 

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6 minutes ago, DaBoys said:

This is exactly what makes it a bad deal. With the information we have now, $35M is terrible for us. In order for it not to be terrible, the cap has to go up, AND he has to be someone other that what he has been....

So let's pay up and cross those fingers, boys! 

 

Also we were actively trying to replace Dez from the moment we decided to cut him... 

 

We lost ZERO games trying to replace Romo. You can't count 2015 as trying to replace Romo, because you know..... we weren't.

 

He probably will play better under Moore. We will see on the cap.

Replacing Romo with a 4th rounder is as fluky as getting Romo as a UDFA. Complete stroke of luck to fix that situation in one year instead of almost 10.

I agree that it’s easier to play QB now than say 10-15 years ago, but being the Cowboys’ QB is different, being right in the middle of the Jones circus. It takes a special person. Alex Smith couldn’t do it, guys like Carr and Cousins couldn’t do it, and to an extent Romo couldn’t do it. For all our talent on paper, it’s hard to believe we’d be 32-16 over the last three years without his steadying influence, given we were 4-12 the year before and 40-40 the half-decade before.

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14 minutes ago, DaBoys said:

 

 

I do agree that we haven't replaced Romo's production. So there's no need to pay as though we have, just because Dak can lead. So can Jameis Winston. The leadership quality isn't actually that rare among QBs. You don't think Witten respects Romo? DeMarco Murray loved him. Dez loved him. T.O. loved him....

Your teammates liking you isn't reason enough for me, and I also don't think it's a rare find. 

Romo’s teammates admired him, respected him, at a distance. You think most wanted to roll with the handsome shmuck who dated celebrities, got a huge contract before his 16th start, and was buddy-buddy with the owner and tight end? It’s different with Dak, I promise you. The team’s composure and performance in critical situations is different because they actually believe in him. I loved Romo man, but looking back I find it pretty obvious he couldn’t quite captivate his teammates like Dak can.

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I'm not convinced Daks leadership qualities are worth more than every other QB in the league. I'm also not convinced that his teammates spend their nights fawning over him, and would do anything for him. That's sounds like a romanticized Cowboys Nation fairy tale.

 

 

Tell me, if Daks teammates would run through a brick wall for him, why is his bff Zeke holding out?

Why didn't Amari run through a wall to sign his top 5 deal? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, DaBoys said:

I'm not convinced Daks leadership qualities are worth more than every other QB in the league. I'm also not convinced that his teammates spend their nights fawning over him, and would do anything for him. That's sounds like a romanticized Cowboys Nation fairy tale.

 

 

Tell me, if Daks teammates would run through a brick wall for him, why is his bff Zeke holding out?

Why didn't Amari run through a wall to sign his top 5 deal? 

 

 

It’s a heat of the moment thing, business off the field is separate. You always knew Dallas would blow it in big spots with Romo even if it usually wasn’t “his fault” because of their body language, and that starts with him. Things are palpably different with Dak under center. He wouldn’t have kept his job in 2016 if that weren’t the case- what is “riding the hot hand” but saying “we’re not sure you’re better than Romo but why go through with it when everyone knows he’s going to get hurt again”. That sinking feeling is how you get poor sideline energy and guys going through the motions.

I never thought I’d be making the hot-takey “Romo wasn’t a leader, Dak is” case, but to be perfectly honest I can think of no better explanation as to why Dak's been as or more successful than Romo given the former’s vastly inferior skill set. These teams haven’t been more talented than Romo’s first 3 full years (07-09) yet the records have been nearly identical. I’m telling you, there is a lot of truth to this.

Going back to the contract aspect, it’s not that different from Zeke tbh. Elliott’s leverage lies less in his actual on-field/replacement value and more in his teammates’ perception of his value (perception = reality) and the downside of a tumultuous locker room. This is what happened when we let go of Murray- we didn’t lose the guy who made our offense great, but we did lose the guy who motivated everyone by being a GD soldier eating 450 touches. We did lose some trust, and ergo, morale. Intangible value is a real thing in any business.

Edited by matt79511
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Sigh such a thing Dak wins games doesn’t lose them and that will only continue sure he needs to improve and will   If you look at rooks who started as a rook and played continues through the years they all have improved especially years 3-6 etc    Look at their stars players like Big Ben even Brady they were not stat fillers as rookies or second year players BUT THEY WON.    Getting a young QB who wins is harder then you think.  

The Sad thing is Dak was good enough last year to get this team to the Super Bowl But his team mates let him down by not playing to their potential 

also you think Alex Smith Winston can replace Dak well good luck with that TB sure wins a lot of games and Alex Smith is more known for loosing the. Winning 

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3 hours ago, matt79511 said:

The team’s composure and performance in critical situations is different because they actually believe in him. I loved Romo man, but looking back I find it pretty obvious he couldn’t quite captivate his teammates like Dak can.

I'm not a Romo fan by any means as you claim to be. I hated how he would inexplicably get the yips in the pocket, and start rushing his throws. I didn't like that he was always missing time and fragile.

 

But I think you forgot some of the comebacks that Romo would engineer. There was one year it seemed we would almost have to get down big and go into our two minute offense to win. If we are down by more than 10 now, with Dak, I'm praying for a miracle.

I was not a fan of Linehan from way back. So I do think you are right. Dak should get better under Moore. I am hopeful, and have said this several times.

 

Romo captivated his teammates when he was young just like Dak does. 

Romo was replaced because he was old and fragile and on his way out. Not because Dak was a better leader. Even if the younger guys liked Dak better because he was younger. 

Wait until Dak is 35, married, and has a family. He won't be out with the boys either. 

 

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1 hour ago, matt79511 said:

It’s a heat of the moment thing, business off the field is separate. You always knew Dallas would blow it in big spots with Romo even if it usually wasn’t “his fault” because of their body language,

Whatttttt....

 

You have truly forgotten everything. It's sad, and I wasn't a Romo guy. 

 

Give me an example. A picture. Something.

Show me in the cold Packers DezCatch playoff game where Dez Bryant, DeMarco Murray, Jason Witten, and our young OL were ANYTHING other than fiery.

 

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