Dak Thread....still debating, beating a dead horse

[Nextyearfordaboyz]

Someone tell AJ Hawk to come get his brother, please.

[TVScout]

20 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

 

By my count 4 of them are his fault. The others: 2 hail marys, 2 off WRs hands, 1 was DPI when the packers player slapped Gallups head down.

Am I wrong? 

The most important QB stat is passes dropped vs. passes intercepted.

[Matts4313]

1 hour ago, TVScout said:

The most important QB stat is passes dropped vs. passes intercepted.

Im not sure I follow. Can you go into more detail as to why?

[TheGame316]

5 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

You are right in that Dak made a mistake trusting the most expensive RB in the NFL behind the most expensive OL in the NFL to pick up 2 yards against 6 guys. Just goes to show you how if Dak doesnt do it all by himself, we lose. (/s)

And lol about the Kirk on Redskins comp. That is straight trolling. 

We have the 5th best defense in terms of points allowed

We have (allegedly) the best running back in the NFL

We have (allegedly) A very good Offensive Line

We have an excellent Receving Corps

Dak puts up a lot of big stats with these tools, Dak really looks the part

Dak had been branded a "winner"

Yet factoring in all of the above

We don't win games. We are 5-4 trending towards 9-7

All of the above is a recipe for success

What gives? Because at the end of the day Dak gets us up and down the field, and puts up a lot of fancy stats, Has the largest control of how the team plays, but for whatever reason this doesn't translate into winning games - Why not?

Dak's 5 Win Peer group includes: Ryan Tannehill, Mason Rudolph, The Allen guy in Carolina, Derek Carr and Jacoby Brissett

 

[matt79511]

3 minutes ago, TheGame316 said:

We have the 5th best defense in terms of points allowed

We have (allegedly) the best running back in the NFL

We have (allegedly) A very good Offensive Line

We have an excellent Receving Corps

Dak puts up a lot of big stats with these tools, Dak really looks the part

Dak had been branded a "winner"

Yet factoring in all of the above

We don't win games. We are 5-4 trending towards 9-7

All of the above is a recipe for success

What gives? Because at the end of the day Dak gets us up and down the field, and puts up a lot of fancy stats, Has the largest control of how the team plays, but for whatever reason this doesn't translate into winning games - Why not?

Dak's 5 Win Peer group includes: Ryan Tannehill, Mason Rudolph, The Allen guy in Carolina, Derek Carr and Jacoby Brissett

 

I’m not gonna act like I haven’t been harsh on Dak over the years, but the fact that people are deigning to critique him for being a guy who puts up big stats but can’t win kind of says a lot, doesn’t it?

My and so many other’s issues with him in his first three years were essentially the opposite. Despite winning 2/3 of his games, completing 2/3 of his passes, and scoring touchdowns twice as often as he turned the ball over, this team frequently struggled to score, and Dak did not fare nearly as well in certain advanced metrics as he did in the box score. So yeah, he was kind of an enigma and warranted the heated debates this forum held on him.

This year, we’re Top 5 in so many advanced passing metrics while Dak’s on pace for career numbers in terms of quantity, not just efficiency. He’s playing better with more offensive responsibility, not worse as I and so many others had assumed. The guy is one of the best players in football and those still denying that are, well, in denial.

The slow starts are a somewhat valid critique, but this offense is pretty much a machine. The QB needs to go rogue. His inept head coach is by far the biggest reason this team isn’t 7-2/8-1

[TheGame316]

6 minutes ago, matt79511 said:

I’m not gonna act like I haven’t been harsh on Dak over the years, but the fact that people are deigning to critique him for being a guy who puts up big stats but can’t win kind of says a lot, doesn’t it?

My and so many other’s issues with him in his first three years were essentially the opposite. Despite winning 2/3 of his games, completing 2/3 of his passes, and scoring touchdowns twice as often as he turned the ball over, this team frequently struggled to score, and Dak did not fare nearly as well in certain advanced metrics as he did in the box score. So yeah, he was kind of an enigma and warranted the heated debates this forum held on him.

This year, we’re Top 5 in so many advanced passing metrics while Dak’s on pace for career numbers in terms of quantity, not just efficiency. He’s playing better with more offensive responsibility, not worse as I and so many others had assumed. The guy is one of the best players in football and those still denying that are, well, in denial.

The slow starts are a somewhat valid critique, but this offense is pretty much a machine. The QB needs to go rogue. His inept head coach is by far the biggest reason this team isn’t 7-2/8-1

That's fair

And probably what I'm getting at is the true leaders, These "Winning" QB's I'm talking about, The guys with the "It" factor

What would they do if they were in the same situations as Dak? What do you suppose Rodgers or Brady, or Brees would do at 1st and goal from the 5, knowing they are walking up and down the field through the air and can't be stopped and get 3 straight running plays from the coaches

I can't say for certain, but the above QB's have somehow for 15+ years always seem to have gotten it done somehow, and if Dak's THAT GUY, then he needs to be THAT GUY

Edited November 14, 2019 by TheGame316

[matt79511]

10 minutes ago, TheGame316 said:

That's fair

And probably what I'm getting at is the true leaders, These "Winning" QB's I'm talking about, The guys with the "It" factor

What would they do if they were in the same situations as Dak? What do you suppose Rodgers or Brady, or Brees would do at 1st and goal from the 5, knowing they are walking up and down the field through the air and can't be stopped and get 3 straight running plays from the coaches

I can't say for certain, but the above QB's have somehow for 15+ years always seem to have gotten it done somehow, and if Dak's THAT GUY, then he needs to be THAT GUY

I agree he’s being too deferential in not checking out of some horrendous run calls against NO, NYJ, and MIN. He needs to be the one to say, “Coach, we’re not leaving this RZ trip with another 35-yard FG attempt, that’s not a win for the team, it’s a loss, stop clapping.” And Garrett won’t listen, hence the going rogue.

But if that’s your biggest issue with his play in 2019, that says a lot about how well he’s playing and how the infrastructure is actually letting him down despite the vast on-paper talent.

[Matts4313]

27 minutes ago, TheGame316 said:

That's fair

And probably what I'm getting at is the true leaders, These "Winning" QB's I'm talking about, The guys with the "It" factor

What would they do if they were in the same situations as Dak? What do you suppose Rodgers or Brady, or Brees would do at 1st and goal from the 5, knowing they are walking up and down the field through the air and can't be stopped and get 3 straight running plays from the coaches

I can't say for certain, but the above QB's have somehow for 15+ years always seem to have gotten it done somehow, and if Dak's THAT GUY, then he needs to be THAT GUY

None of those guys did that in year 4. NONE. Hell, most of those guys werent nearly as good as Dak in year 4. Comparing how a year 4 QB on a rookie contract defying his OC to a year 8 QB on a $100M contract is absolutely bonkers.

11 minutes ago, matt79511 said:

I agree he’s being too deferential in not checking out of some horrendous run calls against NO, NYJ, and MIN. He needs to be the one to say, “Coach, we’re not leaving this RZ trip with another 35-yard FG attempt, that’s not a win for the team, it’s a loss, stop clapping.” And Garrett won’t listen, hence the going rogue.

But if that’s your biggest issue with his play in 2019, that says a lot about how well he’s playing and how the infrastructure is actually letting him down despite the vast on-paper talent.

Dak is making the most logical read. Same thing against the Saints really. If you see a lite box on favorable down and distance, its the "smart" play to hand it off. 

[TheGame316]

13 minutes ago, matt79511 said:

I agree he’s being too deferential in not checking out of some horrendous run calls against NO, NYJ, and MIN. He needs to be the one to say, “Coach, we’re not leaving this RZ trip with another 35-yard FG attempt, that’s not a win for the team, it’s a loss, stop clapping.” And Garrett won’t listen, hence the going rogue.

But if that’s your biggest issue with his play in 2019, that says a lot about how well he’s playing and how the infrastructure is actually letting him down despite the vast on-paper talent.

That's THE issue though. That's what makes the guy.... THE GUY

He needs to take the reigns and have an attitude as if "you don't like it? BENCH ME"

Then go out and show them by audibling out of the run, throw a dart to Cooper or Cobb and get the win, and politely ask Garrett or Moore to hold his jock strap for him while he packs his bag for the next game

[TheGame316]

2 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

None of those guys did that in year 4. NONE. Hell, most of those guys werent nearly as good as Dak in year 4. Comparing how a year 4 QB on a rookie contract defying his OC to a year 8 QB on a $100M contract is absolutely bonkers.

Dak is making the most logical read. Same thing against the Saints really. If you see a lite box on favorable down and distance, its the "smart" play to hand it off. 

So, you're saying we should lower our expectations of Dak in year 4, because despite all the stats, he shouldn't be compared to the Top QB's in the game today. They can do things that he can't or doesn't

Got it.... (That's pretty much what I've been saying BTW....)

[Matts4313]

4 minutes ago, TheGame316 said:

So, you're saying we should lower our expectations of Dak in year 4, because despite all the stats, he shouldn't be compared to the Top QB's in the game today. They can do things that he can't or doesn't

Got it.... (That's pretty much what I've been saying BTW....)

I would say:

1. What are your expectations?

2. He should be compared to top QBs in context. 

3. Dak changes the play constantly. Did you not watch the game? He was aubibling none stop. It goes back to coaching though - if you are specifically told in certain situations to stick with whats called (short yardage, 6 man box, just run it)... Then a 4th year QB on a rookie contract is going to do that. Just like Brady, Brees, Rodgers all did. 

[matt79511]

17 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Dak is making the most logical read. Same thing against the Saints really. If you see a lite box on favorable down and distance, its the "smart" play to hand it off. 

And he’s been wrong on some occasions as the defenses has cheated guys down into box right before or even as the ball is being snapped. Playing QB is pretty freaking hard.

The design of most of our run plays is also very bland/predictable which makes the OL’s job harder, too. Ugh, this team

Edited November 14, 2019 by matt79511

[TheGame316]

12 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I would say:

1. What are your expectations?

2. He should be compared to top QBs in context. 

3. Dak changes the play constantly. Did you not watch the game? He was aubibling none stop. It goes back to coaching though - if you are specifically told in certain situations to stick with whats called (short yardage, 6 man box, just run it)... Then a 4th year QB on a rookie contract is going to do that. Just like Brady, Brees, Rodgers all did. 

What I'm saying is there is no handicapp for "He's only in his 4th year (+8)" when he goes against a Rodgers or a Brady

Cowboys lose 31-24 but because Dak is only in his 4th year and playing against Rodgers his +8 means we get the win isn't a thing

Context doesn't matter when you are expected to win. I'll give Sam Darnold context and won't call him a bust because the Jets are a tire fire around him. Dak has all the tools he needs to have success and win games, and most games. If Top QB's have the "It" factor to get things done and Dak doesn't have that "It" factor because of context (4th year, no contract)then stop comparing him to top QB's. At some point the stats don't matter and all that matters is the "It" factor. Tom Brady had a horrible Superbowl, but that "It" factor was on full display on the 1 drive when it mattered most. Dak has Rodgers beat (well tied) in the playoffs a few years ago until his "It" factor competed an unreal pass and got the game winning FG

1st year, 4th year, 10th year - you are judged on getting the job done when your team is in "win now" mode

Edited November 14, 2019 by TheGame316

[Matts4313]

37 minutes ago, TheGame316 said:

What I'm saying is there is no handicapp for "He's only in his 4th year (+8)" when he goes against a Rodgers or a Brady

Ok?

Quote

Cowboys lose 31-24 but because Dak is only in his 4th year and playing against Rodgers his +8 means we get the win isn't a thing

Wins are not solely a QB stat. As long as you maintain this premise, you argument will consistently be illogical.

And if you are going to maintain this stat, then you recognize Dak is either the #2 (in total wins) QB in the entire NFL or a top 5 (in win%) QB in the entire NFL since entering the league. So my question is, WTF are you complaining about? Even by your own measuring stick we have one of the very best QBs in the league.... 

Quote

Context doesn't matter when you are expected to win. I'll give Sam Darnold context and won't call him a bust because the Jets are a tire fire around him. Dak has all the tools he needs to have success and win games, and most games. If Top QB's have the "It" factor to get things done and Dak doesn't have that "It" factor because of context (4th year, no contract)then stop comparing him to top QB's.

Dak clearly has the "it" factor. He is top 5 in the NFL in game winning drives while simultaneously being bottom 10 in opportunities. Brady, Wilson and Rodgers are the only other QBs who even compare to Dak's clutchness.

Quote

At some point the stats don't matter and all that matters is the "It" factor. Tom Brady had a horrible Superbowl, but that "It" factor was on full display on the 1 drive when it mattered most. Dak has Rodgers beat (well tied) in the playoffs a few years ago until his "It" factor competed an unreal pass and got the game winning FG

Daks "it" factor led him down the field the drive before... This argument is really outlandish.

Quote

1st year, 4th year, 10th year - you are judged on getting the job done when your team is in "win now" mode

Dak is getting the job done. But he cant do it alone now can he? 

Brees - multiple mediocre/losing seasons when his defense sucked.

Rodgers - literally a bad team season last year when he only threw 4 picks and played well.

Big Ben - Its been many years since they were a real playoff threat.

Wilson - its been years since they were a real playoff threat

Watson/Wentz/others have never been a real playoff threat. 

Dak has twice made it to the divisional round and one time been a real playoff threat ('16)

 

So if you  must judge on wins, then recognize Dak wins a lot of football. You are correct that #1 most important is the QB. #1b is stopping the other teams QB though - so look at our defense in those losses. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Matts4313

[Matts4313]

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/11/dak-prescott-mvp-debate-dallas-cowboys

Quote

The Dallas offensive line is routinely hailed as one of the best in the league, but it’s been inconsistent during Dak’s career, and, heading into Week 11, it ranks 15th in ESPN’s pass block win rate metric. When the offensive line has faltered, Prescott has been among the best quarterbacks in the league anyway. He’s averaging 0.15 EPA per attempt under pressure, which ranks fifth in the league.

The receiving corps has also received praise this season, but only nine teams have dropped more passes than the Cowboys have. Dallas ranks 13th in yards-after-catch and Prescott ranks second in average air yards per completion, so he’s doing a lot of the work. And it’s not like Cowboys receivers are getting open for him; only five starting quarterbacks are throwing into tight windows more often than Prescott is, this season per Next Gen Stats.

Let’s take it one step further: What happens if you take out Dak’s throws to his two biggest weapons, Cooper and Elliott? Not much, it turns out. His average EPA per attempt is still among the league’s best at 0.27.